salcanzonieri wrote:I first learned Shaolin way way long ago. And two qigong routines stood out "Chan Yuan Gong" and "Luohan 13 Postures Gong"
Also, Chan Yuan Gong based on pronunciation can use characters for Silk Reeling (Coiling) Exercises.
I think Chen people got it all from those 2 forms. They are too much alike to not have a connection. More than alike, they are exactly the same.
Bao wrote:salcanzonieri wrote:I first learned Shaolin way way long ago. And two qigong routines stood out "Chan Yuan Gong" and "Luohan 13 Postures Gong"
Also, Chan Yuan Gong based on pronunciation can use characters for Silk Reeling (Coiling) Exercises.
I think Chen people got it all from those 2 forms. They are too much alike to not have a connection. More than alike, they are exactly the same.
Do you mean that ”禅圆功”, which has the same character as in Chan (Zen) Buddhism, can have the same pronounciation as Chansijing??? What dialect? Damn interesting, would love to hear or read something more about this. I am actually writing something right now how silk reeling must come from Shaolin, a longer article I have been writing on for quite some time now.
Edit: Yeah, in mandarin, Chan 纏 as in ”coil” or ”wrap” is in the same tone (2) as 禅. Never thought about that before. But the tones and pronunciation has changed over the years, so it would be interesting to know how close they were three or four hundreds of years ago. Some dialects have kept older pronunciation, so it’s possible I guess that “Chan yuan” was pronounced as “chan si” in earlier times.
salcanzonieri wrote: Well, Bao (since you say you are doing an article), or anyone, if you want I can do a videocall with you and actually show you how they are one in the same movements.
The Chan Yuan Gong is the coiling arts, with all movements arising from the lower dantien and all the other TJQ principles.
The Luohan 13 Gong is the actually movements also found in Chen and Yang TJQ. I can show you how the step patterns, the idea of "yield, redirect, absorb, and release" are in the stepping and movements, I can show you that the first move is Peng, Lu, Ji, and An. I can show you that the second move is 6 Sealing, 4 Closing aka Grasp the Bird's Tail I can show you the 3rd move is the other 4 ideas of TJQ: 'Swing, Tear, Elbow, Shoulder', I can show you Lazy Tying Coat in the form and tons more.
I can show you how these all come from TaiZhou Chang Quan, especially Lift Hands.
also the idea of 4 ounces to move 1000 pounds is written in old Shaolin papers about how things work,
salcanzonieri wrote:Chen " Silk Reeling" actually comes from the teachings of Hunyaun Qigong founder and Chen Fake student Feng Zhiqiang,
Feng spent most of his years learning Qigong from the famous Qigong expert Hu Yaozhen, who studied both Shaolin and Daoist Qigong. Feng has more than one connection to Shaolin arts.
Feng Zhiqiang studied Shaolin from his uncle, Wang Yun Kai. Later, in Beijing, he learned Tong Bei Quan from Grandmaster Han Xiao Feng from Cang Zhou, Hebei province (Tong Bei Quan founder of the 1500s studied Shaolin Hong Quan system from 2 masters from there, this system inclues ROU QUAN which both the Chan Yuan Gong and Luohan 13 Gong are considered ROU GONG forms) He also studied Xinyi Quan from Hu Yaozhen and Chen Style Taiji from Chen Fake, both of whom taught him qin shou mi shou (closely and secretly).
Feng never called it CHEN silk reeling, just "silk reeling, but now it is associated with Chen TJQ.
HotSoup wrote:salcanzonieri wrote:Chen " Silk Reeling" actually comes from the teachings of Hunyaun Qigong founder and Chen Fake student Feng Zhiqiang,
Feng spent most of his years learning Qigong from the famous Qigong expert Hu Yaozhen, who studied both Shaolin and Daoist Qigong. Feng has more than one connection to Shaolin arts.
Feng Zhiqiang studied Shaolin from his uncle, Wang Yun Kai. Later, in Beijing, he learned Tong Bei Quan from Grandmaster Han Xiao Feng from Cang Zhou, Hebei province (Tong Bei Quan founder of the 1500s studied Shaolin Hong Quan system from 2 masters from there, this system inclues ROU QUAN which both the Chan Yuan Gong and Luohan 13 Gong are considered ROU GONG forms) He also studied Xinyi Quan from Hu Yaozhen and Chen Style Taiji from Chen Fake, both of whom taught him qin shou mi shou (closely and secretly).
Feng never called it CHEN silk reeling, just "silk reeling, but now it is associated with Chen TJQ.
The earliest documented mention of Silk Reeling was in Chen Xin's book written before Feng Zhiqiang was born.
Also, Feng Zhiqiang never emphasized, let alone attribute something to his training in Shaolin/Tongbei. What he did emphasize though, was that after he had started with Hu Yaozhen, the latter criticized his previous training a lot and made him abandon all of it.
HotSoup wrote:Guess, then we need to separate between Silk Reeling, the principle of using one’s own body, and the type of exercises popularized by the village folks. From that perspective, I agree that, most likely, they got the idea of calling the repetitive circling exercises “Silk Reeling” from Feng, when he was teaching in the village, in the 80th.
Now, did Feng actually invent them? That’s a good question. On one hand, Silk Reeling, the principle, has traditionally been taught in the form. On the other, other people, like Hong Junshen and Xiaojia folks also taught similar exercises, they just didn’t call them “silk reeling”, but rather just “circles”. Hong and Feng weren’t close, they didn’t like each other and didn’t train together, meaning the chances that Hong picked up those exercises from Feng are small. And their usage in Xiaojia lineages only affirms that they predate Feng by generations. Was Feng the one who started calling them “Silk Reeling” and that name stuck? That looks very plausible, but that’s pretty much it.
.(page 149) In 1968, Chen Zaopi developed Chairman Mao's TaiJiQuan and began to teach in the village again
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