Heretical history of Tai Chi

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby Trick on Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:18 pm

robert wrote:
Trick wrote:was the 'chen village' named so back in YLC's days ?(i ask because i dont know).....maybe villages was named after the most influential/prosperous/wealthy family in its area ? but surely not because the family knew an boxing excersisr ? .......however maybe all inhabitants of the 'chen village' held the name Chen, and all of them practiced boxing, and just one set of boxing around every corner of the village......a true village style?...........Ok i stop now so to not waste any investigating historians time 8-)

When Chen Bu moved in the village was named Changyang Village. Eventually the village was filled with Chen family members and it was renamed Chenjiagou. It's not clear to me when that occurred, but it's referred to as Chenjiagou when Chen Wangting is discussed. Chen Bu - 1st generation, Chen Wangting - ninth generation. If that's the case it would have been Chenjiagou when YLC was there. It's said that Chen Bu taught martial arts he had learned in Shanxi, so the martial arts of the Chen clan go back to Chen Bu.

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/TJQorigins.html

Thanks for that link. Interesting about the big migrations mentioned, this coincide with the settlement of the 36 Chinese families in Okinawa at that time which is mentioned in the “oldest karate Kata” thread...And according o that linked article originally in that village it actually seem to have been(or an intention to be)a “village style” since Chen Bu opened a school to teach to all that wanted to learn
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby robert on Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:08 am

Trick wrote:Thanks for that link.

NP

Trick wrote:Interesting about the big migrations mentioned, this coincide with the settlement of the 36 Chinese families in Okinawa at that time which is mentioned in the “oldest karate Kata” thread...And according o that linked article originally in that village it actually seem to have been(or an intention to be)a “village style” since Chen Bu opened a school to teach to all that wanted to learn

Understanding the context Chen Wangting is likely modifying an existing family/village art and one that came from Shanxi.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby yeniseri on Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:08 pm

Bao wrote:People calling it a "village style." He didn't practice a "village style" or "village martial arts". Chen martial arts was naver a village style and only became so very late after the government decided to promote Chen Jiagou. What Chen Chanxing practiced was something kept inside of his family and never taught to outsiders until he decided to break this strict tradition.

But that is exactly why it was a "village style! No one outside of Chenjiagou knew about it until Yang Luchan left the village and went to Beijing. Even when Chen people starrted arriving in the capital, they believed Chen was the usurper!
Wu and Chen people gave an accurate history of Chen village (along with Li Family records but somewhere along the line this Zhang Sanfeng introduciton created a shitstorm of doubt and people not knowing the origin, began to repeat and even change/manipulate due to the New Era of Government Control.
Now even Wudang has its own version Zhaobao taijiquan calling their verson a Zhang Sanfeng original.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby Bao on Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:26 pm

yeniseri wrote:But that is exactly why it was a "village style! No one outside of Chenjiagou knew about it until Yang Luchan left the village and went to Beijing.


No one outside the Chen family knew about it. Because you lived in the village didn't mean that you could study it. There was no public teaching in the Chen village, the Chen family didn't teach it to the Chen village people. It was not a Village style, it was a family style. CCX only had a handful of students. The only two from the area was his own two sons. Only when the government decided to promote the Chen village it became a village style.

Chen people gave an accurate history of Chen village (along with Li Family records but somewhere along the line this Zhang Sanfeng introduction created a shitstorm of doubt and people not knowing the origin [/quote]

The Li family documents are all forgery. But yes, earlier, the Chen family members spoke the truth, but the history they gave of their art was very different from now. They said they didn't know who invented Tai Chi. They didn't known if it was a Chen family member who invented Tai Chi until Tang Hao made up Chen Wangting without any evidence whatsoever. Chen Xin believed it could have been a Chen member who had done it, he thought it was a person named Chen Pu. No one believed it was Chen Wangting.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:44 am

Before you get too invested in a story, maybe conisder that there is actally no evidence that Chen Chanxing actually did martial arts at all, let alone knew a super-secret family style (that he mysteriously then taught to somebody outside the family for no reason.... ::) ), or that he even met Yang LuChan.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby Bao on Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:26 am

GrahamB wrote: there is actally no evidence that Chen Chanxing actually did martial arts at all,...
or that he even met Yang LuChan.


Yup. That is true. We only knew what YLC is supposed to have stated and what his students and their students wrote. However, the story that he learned from someone in the Chen family is a more likely story than that he made up everything by himself, especially when there are no contradicting stories that tells things differently. But of curse, he could have had other teachers as well.

let alone knew a super-secret family style (that he mysteriously then taught to somebody outside the family for no reason.... ::) ),


Super-secret is not a good name, term or concept. It might give the impression of something is kept secret for the sake of secrecy. But that was not really the case. As I have tried to explain, there was very natural and obvious reasons to not teach things to outsiders. In China there is a very strict social hierarchy. For a few hundred years it was even much stricter. The upper class or families with a certain status just didn't socialise with common people. "Village style" is something that was taught in public. A family style was not. Usually, family styles have a connection to higher social classes. No one is saying that CCX mysteriously taught someone else something that was supposed to be kept secret. CQP taught WYX, remember? (Of course, there's no proofs for this as well.) They could teach others, but there must have been some special reason or circumstance for this. YLC was a big, strong guy, so maybe CCX originally just wanted to have someone to test his stuff against? Or maybe someone his sons could try to beat up? Who knows? But of course there must be a very natural explanation. I don't think anyone suggests things like that Space Ninjas from the Andromeda Galaxy came to earth to find out CCX super secrets. ;)
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:40 am

I think you will love part 2 Bao, recording tomorrow :)
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:56 pm

OK, we're up and running

https://www.spreaker.com/user/9404101/5 ... -chi-as-a-

In this episode we examine the context in which the relationship between Yang Luchan, Wu Chengqing and Wu Yuxiang developed during the years of the Taiping Rebellion and the new regime of Emperor Xianfeng.

Image
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby Bao on Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:25 am

GrahamB wrote:I think you will love part 2 Bao, recording tomorrow :)


I liked it very much. The few points, or rather conclusions, that I don't really agree with I might bring up after enjoying the next episode.

Great job.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:22 am

Well after everything is said and done, all the postures shown in the Chen Lao Jia long form and the Yang version can be found in Shaolin Qigong and fighting forms.
All the names of the movements are found there as well All the names are Buddhist concepts, none are Taoist.

- I can show you in detail where each posture is originally from, even the salute in the beginning.

- I can show you how the Shaolin Chan Yuan Gong is exactly the same as silk reeling, in fact Chan Yuan Gong means Silk Coiling Exercises
(although today Shaolin being the bullshit place it is nowadays changed the characters to mean 'Zen' circular exercises),

- I can show you the Luohan 13 Postures Qigong and how exactly the same movements are Taiji Quan movements/postures.
The first posture is Peng, Lu, Ji, An.
The second is Six Sealing, Four Closing
The third is the other half: Swing, Tear, Shoulder, Elbow
and so on, move by move.

- Furthermore, this 13 Postures Qigong can for done not only with a staff, but with double swords.
I can show you that, and this double swords version was what Wudang used for their now lost 13 Postures form.
Which later became part of Tong Bei Quan as well. Which later reached Chen village.

- I can show you how Shaolin Jingang Quan was used to incorporate Fajin and Fa Li into the Taiji form.

- I can show you how each subsection of the Lao Jia was taken from different Shaolin routines, each piece in TJQ is a string of Shaolin Postures.
The Shaolin forms follow the exact same order of movements as is done in TJQ,
forms such as Tai Zhu Chang Quan, Shaolin Xie Quan (Slanting Boxing), and Rou Quan forms.

- I can show you the Shaolin Ape Monkey (Gibbon) form and what exactly is like the Chen lao jia form.

- And the Shaolin Hong Quan that Yang incorporated is not the modern one seen today.
In the villages near Shaolin (where the routines went after Shaolin was closed down by various emperors), they practice a Lao Xiao Da Hong Quan that clearly shows what was incorporated into TJQ as a frame to work from.

- Also Chen Wangting went to Mogou village where a relative, Li JiYu had led a tax rebellion against the current Ming government.
Read this article, which they summarized from a book "A History of Shaolin: Buddhism, Kung Fu and Identity" By Lu Zhouxiang
its explains the Shaolin material from 500 years ago that was shared with Chen Wangting.
Even Mark Chen supports this information.
http://shaolintemplemi.org/chen-wangting-founder-of-chen-style-t%27ai-chi-chuan.html

I can show you from all the forms mentioned how the lao jia was pieced together.

There is NO Taoist source of the postural movements, that was an inference only made by ignorant people who want to claim this for their own ends.
Perhaps there is philosophical and theoretical influx from Chang Family martial arts, which a few books have proven this already many years ago.
But the frame itself, was created by combining pieces of Shaolin postural movements.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby Bob on Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:26 am

"Well after everything is said and done, all the postures shown in the Chen Lao Jia long form and the Yang version can be found in Shaolin Qigong and fighting forms.
All the names of the movements are found there as well All the names are Buddhist concepts, none are Taoist."



China Root: Taoism, Chan, and Original Zen David Hinton
Post by Bob on Mon May 25, 2020 10:09 am

At times there have been a substantial amount of references to the Chinese Martial Arts and Buddhism - one of my colleagues once made reference to the assertion that all Chinese martial arts had their roots in Buddhism from India thereby claiming India had substantial influence on the art - the book by David Hinton will be an interesting read in that the Buddhism we refer to in the Chinese martial arts and culture in general has its own influence from the Chinese Daoist origins.

I am sure this will be an interesting and useful read let alone being controversial with regard to the nature of Buddhism found in China.

https://www.amazon.com/China-Root-Taois ... 153&sr=1-4

A beautifully compelling and liberating guide to the original nature of Zen in ancient China by renowned author and translator David Hinton.

Buddhism migrated from India to China in the first century C.E., and Ch'an (Japanese: Zen) is generally seen as China's most distinctive and enduring form of Buddhism. In China Root, however, David Hinton shows how Ch'an was in fact a Buddhist-influenced extension of Taoism, China's native system of spiritual philosophy. Unlike Indian Buddhism's abstract sensibility, Ch'an was grounded in an earthy and empirically-based vision. Exploring this vision, Hinton describes Ch'an as a kind of anti-Buddhism. A radical and wild practice aspiring to a deeply ecological liberation: the integration of individual consciousness with landscape and with a Cosmos seen as harmonious and alive.

In China Root, Hinton describes this original form of Zen with his trademark clarity and elegance, each chapter exploring in enlightening ways a core Ch'an concept--such as meditation, mind, Buddha, awakening--as it was originally understood and practiced in ancient China. Finally, by examining a range of standard translations in the Appendix, Hinton reveals how this original understanding and practice of Ch'an/Zen is almost entirely missing in contemporary American Zen, because it was lost in Ch'an's migration from China through Japan and on to the West.

Whether you practice Zen or not, taking this journey on the wings of Hinton's remarkable insight and powerful writing will transform how you understand yourself and the world.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby GrahamB on Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:05 pm

I think you are posting on the wrong thread... this one is all about how Tai Chi was completely invented by Confucians in the Royal Court, not Taoists. Get your own damn Taoist thread. ;D
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby Bob on Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:43 pm

Graham - no it's the right thread - this is in reference as to what I pasted regarding Salcanzonieri's assertion:

[i]"All the names of the movements are found there as well All the names are Buddhist concepts, none are Taoist"

"There is NO Taoist source of the postural movements, that was an inference only made by ignorant people who want to claim this for their own ends."[
/i]

The point of Hinton, as I read it, all Buddhist concepts formulated in early China are at heart . . . "Ch'an was in fact a Buddhist-influenced extension of Taoism".

So whatever we have labeled "Shaolin" is at its root a modification of Daoism and hence the origin's of Tajiquan evolved within the stew pot of Daosim.

Shaolin are those arts that passed through and perhaps modified by the Shaolin Temple practitioners who may or may not have all been "monks" - I am too tired to get my references so whatever goes, goes! LOL
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby Bao on Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:50 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:There is NO Taoist source of the postural movements, that was an inference only made by ignorant people who want to claim this for their own ends.
Perhaps there is philosophical and theoretical influx from Chang Family martial arts, which a few books have proven this already many years ago.
But the frame itself, was created by combining pieces of Shaolin postural movements.


I would agree that Taijiquan is developed from Shaolin arts, and probably so was all historical forerunners to TJQ. I also believe that the very most of "Internal" and "soft" principles existed already in very early Shaolin. But as Bob points out, Daoism and Buddhism has a very complicated relationship in China. The traditions have been mixed and influenced each other and continued to mix throughout all of the Chinese history. And also, "Shaolin" arts actually does not come from Buddhism, or even the Shaolin temple. China had martial arts already before the Shaolin temple. Daoist principles and influence from Daoist practice was already there, right from the beginning.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:35 pm

Nice, but you are really changing the subject. I know that Zen Buddhism has roots in Taoism.
That's fine for meditation and mindfulness and enlightment.

BIG SO WHAT

I am stating the the actual movements found posture by posture in TJQ. are all found within Shaolin Qigong and Routines.
That's my point. A point that can be proven not only by me, who practiced both Shaolin and TJQ since the early 1980s, but also many other researchers in China and outside of China.

It is a very important fact that each and every posture, and strings of postural movements can be found.
TJQ is pieced together, it's a patchwork of all different Shaolin material, which was always internal.
The whole internal vs external thing was all a hoax and always was.

The only external martial arts is modern day Competition Wusu, and now we can add MMA to that, perhaps.

Regardless, none of that is important. What is important, very important, is that every single piece of TJQ can be pointed out in the different related Shaolin Qigongs and routines that are part of the Ming dynasty era Shaolin Hong Quan systm (which consisted of Chan Yuan Gong, Louhan 13 Postures Gong, Lao Xiao Da Hong Quan, Rou Quan, Jingang Quan, Tai Zhu Chang Quan, Ape Monkey Quan, Xiao Pao Chui, etc.,)
So don't ignore this statement, which is a fact, and change the subject into blah blah blah.

Furthermore, I don't think that Pao Quan from Chen Wang Ting's time survived. The current Chen Pau Quan sets contains 2 vaguely general movements from Shaolin Xiao Pao Quan, which are also found anyway in all the other Shaolin forms I just mentioned. Right now no one knows where the movements in Chen Pao Quan originated from.
But that is changing the subject as well.
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