Heretical history of Tai Chi

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:41 pm

I first learned Shaolin way way long ago. And two qigong routines stood out "Chan Yuan Gong" and "Luohan 13 Postures Gong"
Mainly because you can do the forms as 1 - purely Qigong, 2 - as a Quan using all the moves for self defense 3- with a Staff instead of bare hands, 4 - with double weapons (sword, for example) instead of bare hands, and nothing needs to be altered in the movements.
Also, Chan Yuan Gong based on pronunciation can use characters for Silk Reeling (Coiling) Exercises.

Later, when I learned Chen TJQ and Yang TJQ, I said hey the silk reeling from Chen and the coiling exercises from Yang are the same as Chan Yuan gong and Luohan 13 Gong.
I even showed more than one TJQ teacher over the past decades the Shaolin gong moves and I said "What am I doing?" and they all said Chen Silk Reeling / Yang Coiling
SO what does that mean?

(don't go by what Youtube shows, those are public versions all external, real Shaolin version is not like the videos) I will have to make my own videos.

I think Chen people got it all from those 2 forms. They are too much alike to not have a connection. More than alike, they are exactly the same.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby Bao on Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:14 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:I first learned Shaolin way way long ago. And two qigong routines stood out "Chan Yuan Gong" and "Luohan 13 Postures Gong"
Also, Chan Yuan Gong based on pronunciation can use characters for Silk Reeling (Coiling) Exercises.

I think Chen people got it all from those 2 forms. They are too much alike to not have a connection. More than alike, they are exactly the same.


Do you mean that ”禅圆功”, which has the same character as in Chan (Zen) Buddhism, can have the same pronounciation as Chansijing??? What dialect? Damn interesting, would love to hear or read something more about this. I am actually writing something right now how silk reeling must come from Shaolin, a longer article I have been writing on for quite some time now.

8-)

Edit: Yeah, in mandarin, Chan 纏 as in ”coil” or ”wrap” is in the same tone (2) as 禅. Never thought about that before. But the tones and pronunciation has changed over the years, so it would be interesting to know how close they were three or four hundreds of years ago. Some dialects have kept older pronunciation, so it’s possible I guess that “Chan yuan” was pronounced as “chan si” in earlier times.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby Trick on Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:42 pm

GrahamB wrote:
Are we denigrating Chen style?

https://thetaichinotebook.com/2020/08/1 ... hen-style/

Militia fighters”, “tracking down and fighting bandits”

Not empty handed I’ll guess? Probably shovels, rakes, sticks’n bricks to courageously swing around.

That kind of gong fu YLC probably knew pretty well from childhood time, the methods he learned at the village was most certainly not the common gong fu of the village........
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:07 pm

Bao wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:I first learned Shaolin way way long ago. And two qigong routines stood out "Chan Yuan Gong" and "Luohan 13 Postures Gong"
Also, Chan Yuan Gong based on pronunciation can use characters for Silk Reeling (Coiling) Exercises.

I think Chen people got it all from those 2 forms. They are too much alike to not have a connection. More than alike, they are exactly the same.


Do you mean that ”禅圆功”, which has the same character as in Chan (Zen) Buddhism, can have the same pronounciation as Chansijing??? What dialect? Damn interesting, would love to hear or read something more about this. I am actually writing something right now how silk reeling must come from Shaolin, a longer article I have been writing on for quite some time now.

8-)

Edit: Yeah, in mandarin, Chan 纏 as in ”coil” or ”wrap” is in the same tone (2) as 禅. Never thought about that before. But the tones and pronunciation has changed over the years, so it would be interesting to know how close they were three or four hundreds of years ago. Some dialects have kept older pronunciation, so it’s possible I guess that “Chan yuan” was pronounced as “chan si” in earlier times.


We would be needing to hear Yuan and Ming era dialects from Shaolin area, maybe even older

Today Shaolin calls the movements Chan Yuan Gong - ”禅圆功” in order to have the Chan Buddhism claim (Zen Circling Exercises kinda makes no sense. Mindful circles? makes no sense), but most pronounce Chan Yuan as in 纏圆 means coiling circularly, as in spiraling or twisting, which is what is done to make silk. And it is what the moves do, and they are done the same as Chen does them

Similarly there is:
绢 Trad. 絹 - juàn - thin, tough silk fabric
纶 Trad. 綸 - lún - to twist silk, silk thread'

Chen " Silk Reeling" actually comes from the teachings of Hunyaun Qigong founder and Chen Fake student Feng Zhiqiang,
Feng spent most of his years learning Qigong from the famous Qigong expert Hu Yaozhen, who studied both Shaolin and Daoist Qigong. Feng has more than one connection to Shaolin arts.
Feng Zhiqiang studied Shaolin from his uncle, Wang Yun Kai. Later, in Beijing, he learned Tong Bei Quan from Grandmaster Han Xiao Feng from Cang Zhou, Hebei province (Tong Bei Quan founder of the 1500s studied Shaolin Hong Quan system from 2 masters from there, this system inclues ROU QUAN which both the Chan Yuan Gong and Luohan 13 Gong are considered ROU GONG forms) He also studied Xinyi Quan from Hu Yaozhen and Chen Style Taiji from Chen Fake, both of whom taught him qin shou mi shou (closely and secretly).
Feng never called it CHEN silk reeling, just "silk reeling, but now it is associated with Chen TJQ.

I am learning Silk Reeling (again) now but this time from a student of Feng's son in law.

Well, Bao (since you say you are doing an article), or anyone, if you want I can do a videocall with you and actually show you how they are one in the same movements.
The Chan Yuan Gong is the coiling arts, with all movements arising from the lower dantien and all the other TJQ principles.
The Luohan 13 Gong is the actually movements also found in Chen and Yang TJQ. I can show you how the step patterns, the idea of "yield, redirect, absorb, and release" are in the stepping and movements, I can show you that the first move is Peng, Lu, Ji, and An. I can show you that the second move is 6 Sealing, 4 Closing aka Grasp the Bird's Tail I can show you the 3rd move is the other 4 ideas of TJQ: 'Swing, Tear, Elbow, Shoulder', I can show you Lazy Tying Coat in the form and tons more.
I can show you how these all come from TaiZhou Chang Quan, especially Lift Hands.
also the idea of 4 ounces to move 1000 pounds is written in old Shaolin papers about how things work,
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby Bao on Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:28 am

salcanzonieri wrote: Well, Bao (since you say you are doing an article), or anyone, if you want I can do a videocall with you and actually show you how they are one in the same movements.
The Chan Yuan Gong is the coiling arts, with all movements arising from the lower dantien and all the other TJQ principles.
The Luohan 13 Gong is the actually movements also found in Chen and Yang TJQ. I can show you how the step patterns, the idea of "yield, redirect, absorb, and release" are in the stepping and movements, I can show you that the first move is Peng, Lu, Ji, and An. I can show you that the second move is 6 Sealing, 4 Closing aka Grasp the Bird's Tail I can show you the 3rd move is the other 4 ideas of TJQ: 'Swing, Tear, Elbow, Shoulder', I can show you Lazy Tying Coat in the form and tons more.
I can show you how these all come from TaiZhou Chang Quan, especially Lift Hands.
also the idea of 4 ounces to move 1000 pounds is written in old Shaolin papers about how things work,


Awesome, appreciate this a lot. I'll take this to PM and explain a bit further what I am doing. Please check your inbox. 8-)
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby HotSoup on Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:05 am

salcanzonieri wrote:Chen " Silk Reeling" actually comes from the teachings of Hunyaun Qigong founder and Chen Fake student Feng Zhiqiang,
Feng spent most of his years learning Qigong from the famous Qigong expert Hu Yaozhen, who studied both Shaolin and Daoist Qigong. Feng has more than one connection to Shaolin arts.
Feng Zhiqiang studied Shaolin from his uncle, Wang Yun Kai. Later, in Beijing, he learned Tong Bei Quan from Grandmaster Han Xiao Feng from Cang Zhou, Hebei province (Tong Bei Quan founder of the 1500s studied Shaolin Hong Quan system from 2 masters from there, this system inclues ROU QUAN which both the Chan Yuan Gong and Luohan 13 Gong are considered ROU GONG forms) He also studied Xinyi Quan from Hu Yaozhen and Chen Style Taiji from Chen Fake, both of whom taught him qin shou mi shou (closely and secretly).
Feng never called it CHEN silk reeling, just "silk reeling, but now it is associated with Chen TJQ.


The earliest documented mention of Silk Reeling was in Chen Xin's book written before Feng Zhiqiang was born.

Also, Feng Zhiqiang never emphasized, let alone attribute something to his training in Shaolin/Tongbei. What he did emphasize though, was that after he had started with Hu Yaozhen, the latter criticized his previous training a lot and made him abandon all of it.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:43 am

HotSoup wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:Chen " Silk Reeling" actually comes from the teachings of Hunyaun Qigong founder and Chen Fake student Feng Zhiqiang,
Feng spent most of his years learning Qigong from the famous Qigong expert Hu Yaozhen, who studied both Shaolin and Daoist Qigong. Feng has more than one connection to Shaolin arts.
Feng Zhiqiang studied Shaolin from his uncle, Wang Yun Kai. Later, in Beijing, he learned Tong Bei Quan from Grandmaster Han Xiao Feng from Cang Zhou, Hebei province (Tong Bei Quan founder of the 1500s studied Shaolin Hong Quan system from 2 masters from there, this system inclues ROU QUAN which both the Chan Yuan Gong and Luohan 13 Gong are considered ROU GONG forms) He also studied Xinyi Quan from Hu Yaozhen and Chen Style Taiji from Chen Fake, both of whom taught him qin shou mi shou (closely and secretly).
Feng never called it CHEN silk reeling, just "silk reeling, but now it is associated with Chen TJQ.


The earliest documented mention of Silk Reeling was in Chen Xin's book written before Feng Zhiqiang was born.

Also, Feng Zhiqiang never emphasized, let alone attribute something to his training in Shaolin/Tongbei. What he did emphasize though, was that after he had started with Hu Yaozhen, the latter criticized his previous training a lot and made him abandon all of it.


Yes, I thanks, I know that Chen Xin wrote about it.
I went and looked through Chen Xin's book last night, of course it writes about Silk Reeling THEORY.
But not the silk reeling exercises as we see them today.

Hu was a strange character, and if you ready his life story, he trained in both Buddhist and Daoist Qigong of many types.
The proof is in the silk reeling movements themselves, they are very much like and some parts identical to Hua Shan Health Preserving and Longevity Qigong and to Shaolin Rou Gong.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby HotSoup on Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:15 am

Guess, then we need to separate between Silk Reeling, the principle of using one’s own body, and the type of exercises popularized by the village folks. From that perspective, I agree that, most likely, they got the idea of calling the repetitive circling exercises “Silk Reeling” from Feng, when he was teaching in the village, in the 80th.

Now, did Feng actually invent them? That’s a good question. On one hand, Silk Reeling, the principle, has traditionally been taught in the form. On the other, other people, like Hong Junshen and Xiaojia folks also taught similar exercises, they just didn’t call them “silk reeling”, but rather just “circles”. Hong and Feng weren’t close, they didn’t like each other and didn’t train together, meaning the chances that Hong picked up those exercises from Feng are small. And their usage in Xiaojia lineages only affirms that they predate Feng by generations. Was Feng the one who started calling them “Silk Reeling” and that name stuck? That looks very plausible, but that’s pretty much it.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:03 pm

HotSoup wrote:Guess, then we need to separate between Silk Reeling, the principle of using one’s own body, and the type of exercises popularized by the village folks. From that perspective, I agree that, most likely, they got the idea of calling the repetitive circling exercises “Silk Reeling” from Feng, when he was teaching in the village, in the 80th.

Now, did Feng actually invent them? That’s a good question. On one hand, Silk Reeling, the principle, has traditionally been taught in the form. On the other, other people, like Hong Junshen and Xiaojia folks also taught similar exercises, they just didn’t call them “silk reeling”, but rather just “circles”. Hong and Feng weren’t close, they didn’t like each other and didn’t train together, meaning the chances that Hong picked up those exercises from Feng are small. And their usage in Xiaojia lineages only affirms that they predate Feng by generations. Was Feng the one who started calling them “Silk Reeling” and that name stuck? That looks very plausible, but that’s pretty much it.


hmm. interesting.

Calling the exercises "just circles" brings us to the Chan Yuan Gong (of Shaolin) concept in their Rou Gongs of 'coiling circles'. Even better.
This may bring even closer to Shaolin origin of the movements, since they are the Qigong version of what's inside their Hong Quan, Rou Quan, Pao Chui, Jingang Quan, TZ Chang Quan sets.

So, obviously, what looks same/different between Hong Junshen's reeling (coiling) exercises and Feng's version?
Also, then, what looks same /different between ancient Xiaojia version and Hung's and Feng's versions?
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby Quigga on Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:41 pm

I know next to nothing about IMA history compared to you guys (and girls?), but regarding Chan/Zen:

You need twisting exercises to get as much elasticity as possible in your body, which allows easier standing and moving in Wuji or Unity... When Yin Yang become clearly differentiated, yet act so smoothly together that there is no block in transitioning from one move / posture to another... without disturbing the mind... you could call it moving Wuji. Acting without acting. You move, but I'm already there, because my mind is everywhere, even in the places you didn't look yet. Of course sitting meditation becomes easier as well.

This may be a bit of a stretch ;D
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby GrahamB on Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:50 pm

#56 The Tai Chi Myth (part 6) The Same Form

In our last look at Tai Chi for a while, we examine the context of the times in which Chen Zhaopei and Chen Fake became prominent for their martial arts in Beijing, and then at a national level, joining the wave of commerciality that had been originally instigated by the legacy of Yang Luchan and the Wu brothers. In addition we explain why the forms are similar in general order between the Yang/Wu and Chen lineages.


https://www.spreaker.com/user/9404101/5 ... -same-form
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby Bob on Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:26 am

A look at Chen Zhaopi through Chen Qingzhou

In 2000 I played the Chen style taijiquan that I learned a la Du Yu Ze lineage as a demonstration for the people in his village. In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, his flavor and style comes close to what I practiced at that time and provides insight into what some of the older flavors of Chen taijiquan looked like

Please note that in the Du Yu Ze clip he is 81 years old and his style and flavor may have been different when he was younger - personally I have never had a problem seeing the connection between Yang style taijiquan in general and what Du Yu Ze is demonstrating - again a personal opinion not a statement of authority.


http://chenfamilytaiji.com/profile_chen_qingzhou.html

Grandmaster Chen Qingzhou is a 19th-generation lineage holder in Chen Family Taijiquan Gongfu and a direct descendant of the ancestral founder of Chen Village where Taijiquan originated. Born in 1934, he began training in Chen Family Old Frame under his father, Chen Wufang. He was later sent to study with the great 18th-generation master, Chen Zhaopi, disciple of Chen Fake. From his early youth, Chen Qingzhou had a tremendous love for Taijiquan. He practiced diligently and took careful notes of everything he learned. As a result, Chen Zhaopi permitted him to teach after only one year of study and granted him the status of rumen (indoor) disciple in 1962.


Master Chen Qingzhou's Love of "Lao Jia":

In 1974, Chen Qingzhou began learning Chen Family New Frame from Chen Zhaokui, the youngest son of Chen Fake. He subsequently abandoned New Frame, asserting that Chen Family Taijiquan should be preserved and taught as it had been for hundreds of years. He therefore retained the entire Old Frame system: Old Frame First Form, Old Frame Second Form (Paochui), Taiji Single Sword, Taiji Double Sword, Taiji Single Broadsword, Spring-Autumn Broadsword, Short Staff (Wu Hu Qun Yang Gun), Three-Man Staff, Pear Blossom Spear/White Ape Staff (Li Hua Qiang Jia Bai Yuan Gun), Taiji sphere, Taiji ruler (xing gong bang), pole shaking (dou gun zi), the five push-hands techniques of Chen Village, and joint locking and grappling (na fa). The empty-hand forms contain the core principles of Chen Family Taijiquan: chan si jin (silk-reeling energy), yin jing lou kong (leading into emptiness), zhou hua (neutralization), na fa, the basic energies, etc. In addition to these skills, weapons are used specifically for building up fa jin (explosive force), ting jin (sensitivity), and improving footwork.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3YqCNqq6-U



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfy7XVSugUU

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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:49 am

Bob, agreed about both of them.
I learned Chen Qingzhou version of Chen style through one of BP Chan's teachers under him (Warner Ollie).
Also learned Du's version from a teacher from Taiwan that had various teachers there.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:01 am

Graham,
So I recently read "Politics and Identity in the Chinese Martial Arts" by Lu ZhouXiang.

The book gives a year by year look at the martial arts in China.
He said something that struck me. He said that after martial arts were banned in Cultural Revolution, Tai JI Quan was allowed again by everyone had to teach ONLY Chairnan's Mao's official version, which was called "Sincere Wishes for a Long Life to Chairman Mao's TaiJiQuan" in December 1967.
This version changed the form to make the various styles as one.
(page 149) In 1968, Chen Zaopi developed Chairman Mao's TaiJiQuan and began to teach in the village again
.
There are so many implications to this statement!

Lu references a book for this statement:
ChunDong Cui, Taiji Shengdi Chenjia Gou (Zhengzhou Zhongzhou guji chuban she, 2008), page 122.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby GrahamB on Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:38 am

Sal,

I’ve never heard that before. It does fit perfectly with the Mao Communist idea though - everything has to be the same.

Here he is in 1964 watching martial arts

https://www.bilibili.com/video/av390549 ... SkMcn7t0Rs

Yes, he wasn't anti martial arts per-se, he was anti people being different from each other. As long as you all dress the same (preferably in a CCP uniform) and don't have any smoky quirks then you were reasonably okay. 1964 is a couple of years ahead of the Cultural Revolution - during that martial arts weren't specifically singled out, it was just any rotten old traditions, and the martial arts got lumped in with those.
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