Fajin training

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Fajin training

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:55 pm

A: What's Fajin?
B: After 10 years of CMA training, you will understand what Fajin is.
C: If you do these few drills, you will understand Fajin in few weeks.

IMO, B < C

In this 3 moves combo,

- Toe kick,
- Back fist,
- step in, and punch,

one can learn the basic power generation method. This combo can prove that you don't need to spend 10 years to understand Faiji. Just few simple drills should be enough. Please notice the Fjin coordinates with the front foot landing.

Your thought?

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:25 pm

Very few people can do it, but with some simple drills it can be achieved in several months and perfected over several years. It's the same as with any other skill like a hip throw. There are drills to train the power generation, drills on targets, partner drills and sparring. People make it out to be this mysterious thing when it really is not. They do that to hide the fact that they never put in the training to be able to do it themselves or because they never learned it. Now just because you can generate that power doesn't mean that you can hit anyone with it just like you may not be able to do a hip throw if you've never trained with a resisting opponent. NO DIFFERENCE. Except that other cultures never developed it and it's so rare that everyone is skeptical... *SIGH*
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Re: Fajin training

Postby Bhassler on Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:44 pm

Anyone that thinks fajin is a) all the same or b) rare needs to get out more. Or maybe I've just been exceptionally lucky to have seen all sorts of people with highly diverse backgrounds and different but really good short power generation crawling out of the woodwork...
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Re: Fajin training

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:03 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:It's the same as with any other skill like a hip throw.

Here is hip throw power generation training. The throwing art power generation uses exactly the same principle as the striking art Baji system uses.

- Stretch your body to the maximum in one direction (compress),
- Borrow the elastic recovering force and stretch your body to the maximum in the opposite direction (release).

Image

- Twist your opponent to your left.
- When he resists, borrow his resistance force, twist him to your right.

Image
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Re: Fajin training

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:06 pm

Bhassler wrote:Anyone that thinks fajin is a) all the same or b) rare needs to get out more. Or maybe I've just been exceptionally lucky to have seen all sorts of people with highly diverse backgrounds and different but really good short power generation crawling out of the woodwork...

It's not all the same, that much is true. I would go as far as saying no two are alike. But rare, yes. Perhaps you are exceptionally lucky...
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Re: Fajin training

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:08 pm

johnwang wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:It's the same as with any other skill like a hip throw.

Here is hip throw power generation training. The throwing art power generation uses exactly the same principle as the striking art Baji system uses.

- Stretch your body to the maximum in one direction (compress),
- Borrow the elastic recovering force and stretch your body to the maximum in the opposite direction (release).

Image

What you have shown there is absolutely a type of Fajin.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:48 pm

Same principle - from 1 extreme (compress) to another extreme (release).

Like to hear different Fajin method if people are willing to share.

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Re: Fajin training

Postby Trick on Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:38 am

johnwang wrote:

- Twist your opponent to your left.
- When he resists, borrow his resistance force, twist him to your right.

Image

for this shown as borrowing opponents force, do one need to do specific fajin training as shown in your other gifs ? isnt what show someting as borrowing the opponents fajin atempt ?
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Re: Fajin training

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:48 am

If you just translate it as ‘Issue Power’, then yes, anyone can do that, a five year old kid, your grandma, can both ‘Issue (their respective amount of) Power.

But that’s the point of why martial artists, who were naturally secretive and dismissive of strangers, would name something that’s highly specialized and specific, such a mundane or generic term.

But, fortunately we have arts that have no longer been kept so secretive, and we have more specific terminology that gives us more insights into what ‘Fa Li/ Fa Jin’ is actually referring to.

Which is a specific usage of the whole spinal column, as if it was like a limb, like a third leg. Everyone knows that to fight, the amount of power you can put into a strike, is basically dependent on how fast and powerful a limb can bend and unbend. So in order to be even more efficient, what if the spinal column can be used like an extra limb, and somehow make use of its capability to bend and unbend.

This bio-mechanical movement has been dubbed ‘Xiong Yao Zhedie’ (Chest Waist Folding/Bending). Or since the movement of the spinal column is trying to motivate the flesh of the abdomen and torso to jolt upwards and send a wave of flesh moving in time with the outgoing strike, it’s also been named ‘Bo Lang Jin’ (Crashing Wave Power). Another name is because you can see the rippling movement of the spine and torso, which looks sort of like the way an inch worm scoots itself along a branch, that another term is ‘Can Yong Jin’ (Silk Worm Power).

This movement, and everything it entails, in order to get it to the point where it can effectively be used as if it were a fifth limb of your body, requires a lot of time spent towards practicing it.

This movement does seem awkward and maybe unnatural, but my teacher said that it is something that men already instinctively know, but just not in any way related to fighting. This doesn’t get mentioned, very much, if at all, because there’s a strict taboo about talking about what happens in the bedroom. But basically it’s the action of the spine and pelvis that one uses to thrust. And using essentially the tailbone to try to ‘Poke the tip of the sword through the bottom of the sheath’. :D Which is the same for using it to add power. The area around the tailbone is important, but unlike in the bedroom, it’s important to have movement initiate there, but obviously you can’t keep your intention there. So in order to learn the fluidity of movement to the point where it becomes natural and you can issue power/ spring your spine, on a mere whim, without intention on the movement, but towards the effects, it is said that “A student who is trying to learn this skill, should be locked inside the school for two years.” (Locked inside the school means kept away from trying to apply it in any sort of manner towards fighting. For a good two years it will not be something you can use in a fight. Not even in applications with a friend. Because your intention will be stuck on the movement of your spine, and not on the fight. Or on the fight, but not on your spine, and you can physically hurt your own vertebrae.)

So, two years to learn, but a lifetime to master.

.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:00 am

Trick wrote:for this shown as borrowing opponents force, do one need to do specific fajin training as shown in your other gifs ? isnt what show someting as borrowing the opponents fajin atempt ?

To borrow your own force is the same as to borrow your opponent's force. When you body is stretched into one direction to the maximum (compress), your body elastic force will help you to pull into the opposite direction (release).
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Re: Fajin training

Postby Peacedog on Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:29 pm

The one I have the most experience with involves rebounding force.

Essentially, you absorb the incoming kinetic energy of your opponent onto the ligament/tendon (i.e. fasciae) network in the body. You are forming an arc between the contact point, say hands as an example, and the feet on the ground. If I am doing this statically with a student, they often describe the pressure they are putting on me as combing back at them from my feet. This goes into compression and it is released back into your opponent via a wave of kinetic energy that comes out the body. Using this method you can discharge from pretty much any point of contact (hands, feet, shoulders...).

The base technique can be learned in a weekend, but it takes a really long time to learn to do this at a speed where it is martially effective. FYI, I cannot do this upon demand at speed either. When I'm in practice, I can usually throw 90% of push hands people with very little effort although as a dabbler it may take me a few minutes to lock the other guy up first.

Mostly I've used it as a power training drill with students.

I have, very rarely, had things line up exactly right while sparring and sent people flying with seemingly no effort on my part. The sensation is akin to performing a perfect clean and jerk where the weights don't even seem to be there.

That said, the method seems to be very wearing on the disks in the spinal column and I don't recommend it to a lot of people as something to train more than once a week or so. And never if they are over 50 years of age.
Last edited by Peacedog on Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby Bob on Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:35 pm

Point of reference - one pathway:

http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/index.html

http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/fajing.html

Fajing: Issuing Power as Practiced in Bajiquan and Northern Chinese Martial Arts Systems


By Tony Yang, Robert A. Figler, Ph.D., and Andy Lianto
All photographs by Andy Lianto
Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Vol. 12, No. 1, 2003, pp. 66-79.
Reprinted by Permission
"Traditional Northern Chinese Martial Arts are all Sons of the Same Mother,"
- The late Liu Yun-qiao

Introduction - The ability to fa-jing (), i.e. express effective explosive power through the body is common to many of the martial arts systems found in Northern China. This characteristic energy expression is most commonly associated with such systems as xing yi, taijiquan and baguazhang (, , ) and is developed in a very systematic way of training. In the bajiquan () system taught by the late Liu Yun-qiao, fa-jing is mother's milk to all techniques and applications. In this article we will address how power and fa-jing are systematically trained for in the bajiquan/pigua zhang (/) system currently being taught by Tony Yang, a formal student of the late Liu Yun-qiao. It is important to note that many of the methods illustrated in this article are common to many of the aforementioned Northern Chinese systems.

The ability to delivery power and fa-jing is not an all-or-nothing proposition. Almost every individual has some degree of power and fa-jing applying their martial art. However, the question is whether its delivery is effective and if it can be delivered at a level where serious damage can be inflicted upon an opponent. This energy/body property can be best conceptualized along two continuums for training in the martial arts: 1) ineffective to effective and 2) undeveloped to developed. In the bajiquan system addressing three key areas systematically develops this energy body property: 1) legs, 2) waist, and 3) arms.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:24 pm

Bob wrote:http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/fajing.html

"The first exercise develops punching power with fa-jing by punching from a horse stance to a bow stance ()and back to the horse with alternating sides."

This is the basic long fist Fajin method. I can still remember when I did this training, I could hear the sound and feel the wind from my own punch (even with T-shirt). From this training, one can learn how to borrow the counter force from the ground, and also how to make both shoulders and punching arm into a perfect straight line. The only thing that I don't like is this punch only punch to the side (vertical to the stance) and not punch forward (same direction to the stance). This make the punch not combat realistic.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:07 am

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:for this shown as borrowing opponents force, do one need to do specific fajin training as shown in your other gifs ? isnt what show someting as borrowing the opponents fajin atempt ?

To borrow your own force is the same as to borrow your opponent's force. When you body is stretched into one direction to the maximum (compress), your body elastic force will help you to pull into the opposite direction (release).

Ah, ou mean, to know one self is to know your opponent...... ??………Or do you meanwhen one borrowing the opponents force one is also borrowing ones own force ? However in your GIF here you borrow your opponent foce, you seem just to be gently guidning him(his force) on a route he didnt intend...do you mean you express fajin in that GIF ?
Last edited by Trick on Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:11 am

Kime - is a term used in karate that many(including me, until I read the link I link here)explain as something as CMA’s Fajin https://www.karatebyjesse.com/kime-putt ... he-coffin/
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