Article about abandoning fajin?

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Article about abandoning fajin?

Postby Climb-up on Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:54 pm

Hello everyone,

I’ve been getting into Bagua recently, after not having trained in anything for a long time (and then, mostly Japanese martial arts). I remember an article that I read online years ago that I’m hoping someone can help me find.

I thought the article was either by Ted Manusco or Jerry Alan Johnson, but I could be wrong, and it was titled something along the lines of “can we stop teaching fajin?” or something along those general lines.
It wasn’t, as I recall, actually anti-fajin, but rather saying that fajin arouses some pretty unbalanced aspirations in some and seems to be focused on to the detriment of arguably more important things like sensitivity, etc.

Does anyone remember that article, the title and/or the author?
Anyone have a link!?
I did try searching, but fajin is to general of a search, and I don’t remember the actual article name.

Any help is appreciated
Thank you
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Re: Article about abandoning fajin?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:00 pm

I don't know the article but agree with the concept
The people I have met with the best fa Jin have never trained it
Most people who I see doing demos are just using hard style abrupt energy
Remember as I state below

Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form

Saying that in tai chi it is trained in the weapons and San shou
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Article about abandoning fajin?

Postby Trick on Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:51 pm

Yes, I agree, Fajin is not something added to ones Taiji form it comes naturally when one is ready
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Re: Article about abandoning fajin?

Postby Bob on Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:55 am

Yes and no - fajin although it can't be forced effectively, one must also train it - the structure & pathway must be developed including intent - this discussion has been around before - in the Yang Chengfu line you can find Fu Zhongwen expressing fajin in single moving postures on youtube - in one of the Yang Chengfu books there is a person witnessing a public demonstration in Shanghai sometime in the early 1920s of him expressing fajin in his movements (Davis book I think)

However, there may be numerous methods to train it but fang song is what many put at the foundation and without it fajin is ineffectively expressed in use
Last edited by Bob on Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Article about abandoning fajin?

Postby Bao on Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:32 am

wayne hansen wrote:I don't know the article but agree with the concept
The people I have met with the best fa Jin have never trained it


My experience as well.

Fajin ability comes from being able to relax while coordinating whole body movement. There is also a certain type of core strength needed to stabilize the body. But I don't believe that practicing fajin can develop this. Practicing fajin before the body is ready can do more harm than good. IMO.
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Re: Article about abandoning fajin?

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:22 am

I absolutely agree. Fajin isn't necessary if you don't fight.
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Re: Article about abandoning fajin?

Postby johnwang on Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:29 am

Trick wrote:Fajin is not something added to ones Taiji form it comes naturally when one is ready

If I go to 2 teachers and

Teacher 1 says: Fajin will come naturally when you are ready.
Teacher 2 says: If you do the following drills, you will understand Fajin.

I'll definitely go to teacher 2.

Here is one of my favor Fajin drills.

Image

Also if you train this Taiji drill, you will understand Fajin too.

Image

Last edited by johnwang on Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Article about abandoning fajin?

Postby Climb-up on Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:59 pm

I was afraid that this would turn into an argument on the merits of fajin. Oh well.

Anyways, here’s the article! I was searching for “fajin” but it’s “let’s ban the vibrating palm.”
It hits all the points that I remember, but much more concisely; I think I mentally added parts of a larger conversation that was being had a long time ago to it.

As I said in the very first post, it is not (nor did I ever say it was) actually against fajin (or vibrating palm), but making a point about how it is often perceived.

https://www.plumpub.com/kaimen/2010/let ... ting-palm/
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Re: Article about abandoning fajin?

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:16 pm

It's always interesting to see non tai chi people talk about advanced stages of tai chi
The best tai chi practitioner and fighter I have known did no special exercises to cultivate fa Jing but could manifest it when needed in any circumstances
Most of what people show as fa Jing is just karate style Kime
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Re: Article about abandoning fajin?

Postby johnwang on Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:18 pm

Climb-up wrote:anti-fajin,

The idea of "anti-Fajin" will bring the CMA all the way down to hell. We can't allow that to happen.
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Re: Article about abandoning fajin?

Postby everything on Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:59 pm

so "don't wave your hand gratuitously".

not sure why there had to be an "article" about that, but it was an entertaining read.
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Re: Article about abandoning fajin?

Postby Bob on Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:26 pm

My information came from someone in the direct lineage of Yang Chengfu on a personal basis not just a "he said, she said"

Fajin training has always been a part of the Yang Luchan lines just never really taught public.

The original video associated with the book below comes out of the other lines of Yang Luchan family -

The wind sweeps away the plum blossoms: The principles and techniques of the Yang style Tai chi spear and staff [Paperback]
Stuart Alve Olson (Author)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Previously unpublished, first time in print. Ancient Yang-Style approach to Tai Chi Spear and Staff. This is a workbook intended to be reviewed and studied many times over, to extract the basic principles and the subtleties of the art. This is likely to be the most comprehensive staff and spear Tai Chi book in print. Includes photos, ancient illustrations, and authors own diagrams.

Dvd Tai Chi: The wind sweeps away the plum blossoms: The principles and techniques of the Yang style tai chi spear and staff

The wind sweeps away the plum blossoms: The principles and techniques of the Yang style Tai chi spear and staff
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Re: Article about abandoning fajin?

Postby Bao on Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:00 pm

johnwang wrote:Teacher 1 says: Fajin will come naturally when you are ready.
Teacher 2 says: If you do the following drills, you will understand Fajin.

I'll definitely go to teacher 2.


If would ask both of those teachers to show a good punch on a bag, a pad or or on a kicking protection. Fajin in mid air proves absolutely nothing about real punching power.

Here is one of my favor Fajin drills.

Image


I like Baji methods very much They throw their whole body into the target as a whole. They don't separate arm movement from body movement. Thus, what they show is very different from common punching "fajin".

Also if you train this Taiji drill, you will understand Fajin too.
Image


I don't believe that practicing this drill only would lead to any good skill.

[/quote]

Drills practice only doesn't lead to what is shown here.

If you show things from Chen Taiji, I would like to address what what Chen Zhenglei constantly preaches, that you can't learn real Tai Chi Fajin without first develop you relaxation. Soft comes first, hardness later when you have reach a good understanding of song. Just practicing drills won't teach you real Taiji power.
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Re: Article about abandoning fajin?

Postby dspyrido on Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:57 pm

Bao wrote:If would ask both of those teachers to show a good punch on a bag, a pad or or on a kicking protection. Fajin in mid air proves absolutely nothing about real punching power.


Fajin on a bag also has limits. It will weed out the 99% of ima'ers but how is fajin different to any good "external" striker who can hit hard, fast & penetrate. With higher cardio they can also deliver it continuously faster and with greater volume.

The test I use - let them hit from 1 inch on the gut. If it penetrates with pain then it's on the right track. Is this fajin? Doesn't matter but it's about useful striking.

The only way to learn to hit with real intense whole body power (let's call that fajin) is to practise it over and over.

Bao wrote:Soft comes first, hardness later when you have reach a good understanding of song. Just practicing drills won't teach you real Taiji power.


This may be "taiji power" but is not fajin.

To quote "without fajin ... you have nothing". The person who said this also delivered the greatest short power example I've ever felt.

Take fajin training away and waiting until after learning sung, coordination, forms etc. - then it makes sense why it takes 20 years to make taiji applicable.

If someone is young - start practicing fajin and get used to conditioning. It's useless to wait until the body degrades to learn to issue power.
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Re: Article about abandoning fajin?

Postby Bao on Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:33 pm

dspyrido wrote:Fajin on a bag also has limits.


Please read what I wrote. I said nothing about fajin on a bag. From a Baji guy, I want to feel Baji jin, from a XYQ guy, I want to feel XY jin. From a TJQ guy, I want to feel TJ jin.

It will weed out the 99% of ima'ers


Exactly. ;)

but how is fajin different to any good "external" striker who can hit hard, fast & penetrate. With higher cardio they can also deliver it continuously faster and with greater volume.


I don’t care about external strikers or how strong external methods are. And again, I don’t want to see any fajin. I want to see the IMA person emit deep, penetrating power without taking any particular stance and without making any visible effort. It should look like “nothing”. It’s not only IMA guys who can do this. I’ve watched a Hunggar guy and a Baji guy do the same. Completely natural, no wind up, looked like nothing. But at the other end holding a pad, it hurts just as good as a punch from a strong heavy boxer or from an external method. The quality though will feel different.

The test I use - let them hit from 1 inch on the gut.


One inch? Too far away. ;)

The only way to learn to hit with real intense whole body power (let's call that fajin) is to practise it over and over.


If you only do it in air, you will never understand how your body will react upon meeting a surface and a rebound force. Knowing to fajin air with intense whole body power doesn’t mean that you can make any real damage. You need to practice on penetrating some kind of surface with (relaxed) whole body mechanics.

Bao wrote:Soft comes first, hardness later when you have reach a good understanding of song. Just practicing drills won't teach you real Taiji power.
This may be "taiji power" but is not fajin.


You didn’t get the point. I spoke about Chen taiji as JW took examples from Chen taiji. Real Chen Tai chi fajin starts from a very relaxed yet balanced body. The difference between very soft and hard, or solid, - beginning and ending the fajin - is greater than in fajin from external arts. It can be compared with a greater wind-up, or with a greater acceleration. It’s the greater difference between yin and yang that makes Chen Tai Chi fajin so powerful. If you cannot keep your body in a very relaxed state as you initiate the fajin, the power will be weaker. So indeed, song is a vital part of power generation in Taijiquan fajin.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:43 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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