BJJ framing and Peng

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:10 am

Trick wrote:
Bao wrote:We are speaking from a taiji and internal arts perspective Graham, not from BJJ. ;)

Petty jokes aside, I did like your earlier comment: However, when using Jin you can learn to not "lock out" your arms and achieve the same results though a connected structure and a channeling of the ground force to the point required using the intent (Yi). This is "softer"."

This is a better understanding than a locked frame. The point of course, though I know how you love to play stupid and I certainly don't want to take that away from you, is that you should be light and not offer any resistance, then it's easier to take advantage of your frame. So yes, if a high level MMA fighter is dragged down, he or she sucks in tai chi.

:o ... ;D

And Mongolian wrestlers are losers if they are dropped to the ground, it’s in the ruleset, same goes for sumo and glima wrestlers....and probably same for most folk wrestling styles, one is a loser if laying on the ground........I agree if one would find oneself laying on the ground one has most probably made a mistake ... 8-)

Depends what the person on top looks like...

Anyways, the concept of framing or using your structure in BJJ or Judo is, IMO, like the very first steps to learning Peng. You have to know what a solid structure is before you can learn to make it yield and be flexible. You have to learn how to use your structure and alignment before learning Peng. So I would say it is a part of Peng but not all of it.
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby Dmitri on Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:54 am

johnwang wrote:
Dmitri wrote:Pengjin is a taijiquan term, and the "rooted in the feet, etc".

If you try to bend my arm, Instead of to use the reverse force to against your force, I straight and extend my arm as if water is going through my arm and shoot out from my hand. Even if my feet are not on the ground, Am I still using Peng Jing?

What does Peng has anything to do with "root in the feet"?

It is learned either within the context of the form, or application, or push hands, all if which are always practiced on your feet. I was always taught to "bring my feet to my hands" (among many other things). The maxim I mentioned always applies because you're always on your feet.

Which is not at all the case in BJJ.
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:40 pm

Listening yielding andleading are the way anti Chinna works from a tai chi perspective
Force straightening and speed comes from other methods
I sent two female students to a Machado seminar at a friends karate school conducted for his black belts
They had done no BJJ but one had done shorinji Kempo
The teacher couldn't believe they had not done BJJ before
It is all in correct pushing
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby marvin8 on Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:11 pm

DeusTrismegistus wrote:Anyways, the concept of framing or using your structure in BJJ or Judo is, IMO, like the very first steps to learning Peng. You have to know what a solid structure is before you can learn to make it yield and be flexible. You have to learn how to use your structure and alignment before learning Peng. So I would say it is a part of Peng but not all of it.

There is a maxim in judo, "arms are chains."

Sakujiro Yokoyama wrote:In holding your opponent, therefore, you should hold him lightly as if your arms were nothing but chains which connect you with him, so that you may stretch or contract them at will when necessary, and pull or push him in any direction you choose. If you pull your opponent or apply your tricks on him by putting from the beginning too much strength in your arms, then you are going to contest with him by means of your power and against the principles of Judo. In doing so, you can never expect to succeed in your contest.

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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby johnwang on Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:07 pm

Dmitri wrote:It is learned either within the context of the form, or application, or push hands, all if which are always practiced on your feet.

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I'm still allergic to "push".
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby Dmitri on Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:40 am

Those are demos, not practice. (And certainly not application :))
Highlighted relevant parts for emphasis:

johnwang wrote:
Dmitri wrote:It is learned either within the context of the form, or application, or push hands, all of which are always practiced on your feet.

Image


P. S. just realized that you were probably joking there...? In that case -- :D
Last edited by Dmitri on Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby Bao on Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:33 am

DeusTrismegistus wrote: Anyways, the concept of framing or using your structure in BJJ or Judo is, IMO, like the very first steps to learning Peng. You have to know what a solid structure is before you can learn to make it yield and be flexible. You have to learn how to use your structure and alignment before learning Peng. So I would say it is a part of Peng but not all of it.


Many TJQ teachers teach in the same way. First solid, sometimes even use evident/clumsy strength. Then when you get hold of it, you should use relaxed movement instead of keeping a rigid frame.

Then there are those who teach song/relaxation first and then teach how to add frame or structure from a relaxed state.

So two different approaches can be seen in TJQ, but hopefully they lead to the same goal.

BTW, pengjin is actually pretty one dimensional. It's only expansion. But to really stabilise a frame you need to have contracting energy at the same time. Then spiralling and coiling, aka silk reeling energy is better than peng only. By spiralling and coiling you can stabilise the frame in several directions at the same time. Then you can achieve real stability, within both movement and stationary.
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby Trick on Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:22 pm

DeusTrismegistus wrote:
Trick wrote:
Bao wrote:We are speaking from a taiji and internal arts perspective Graham, not from BJJ. ;)

Petty jokes aside, I did like your earlier comment: However, when using Jin you can learn to not "lock out" your arms and achieve the same results though a connected structure and a channeling of the ground force to the point required using the intent (Yi). This is "softer"."

This is a better understanding than a locked frame. The point of course, though I know how you love to play stupid and I certainly don't want to take that away from you, is that you should be light and not offer any resistance, then it's easier to take advantage of your frame. So yes, if a high level MMA fighter is dragged down, he or she sucks in tai chi.

:o ... ;D

And Mongolian wrestlers are losers if they are dropped to the ground, it’s in the ruleset, same goes for sumo and glima wrestlers....and probably same for most folk wrestling styles, one is a loser if laying on the ground........I agree if one would find oneself laying on the ground one has most probably made a mistake ... 8-)

Depends what the person on top looks like...

.
like an Mongolian wrestler....
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby Quigga on Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:45 am

Bao wrote:
DeusTrismegistus wrote: Anyways, the concept of framing or using your structure in BJJ or Judo is, IMO, like the very first steps to learning Peng. You have to know what a solid structure is before you can learn to make it yield and be flexible. You have to learn how to use your structure and alignment before learning Peng. So I would say it is a part of Peng but not all of it.


Many TJQ teachers teach in the same way. First solid, sometimes even use evident/clumsy strength. Then when you get hold of it, you should use relaxed movement instead of keeping a rigid frame.

Then there are those who teach song/relaxation first and then teach how to add frame or structure from a relaxed state.

So two different approaches can be seen in TJQ, but hopefully they lead to the same goal.

BTW, pengjin is actually pretty one dimensional. It's only expansion. But to really stabilise a frame you need to have contracting energy at the same time. Then spiralling and coiling, aka silk reeling energy is better than peng only. By spiralling and coiling you can stabilise the frame in several directions at the same time. Then you can achieve real stability, within both movement and stationary.


I think it's interesting that we have Peng as a technique (like a jab),

as directions in movement (Expanding. Contracting... I'd say silk reeling and pulling/twining tissues around the bones definitely makes the body stronger to allow for better Peng, but Peng is not contracting IMO. However, when you got more pressure in the tire every movement feels more powerful because you seem to move more perceived mass than before),

and as a state of tissue, where the water that is bound inside the fascia is allowed to expand as much as possible (Hydrostatic pressure in a moving, living body... Plants seem to use this too when you watch videos of them growing quickly.)

And maybe as a natural reflex that arises when one is uninhibited in body, energy and spirit (inspired by LaoDan).

Isn't Peng also seen as an always present energy, to be found in every other movement?

I like to compress words as much possible where I can:
Every cell in the body is framing as in the BJJ video, towards each other, towards the ground. Fascia gives shape to the cell mass, water allows forces to move as smoothly as possible throughout the body. With proper tension one naturally rises upwards and expands the tissue, with proper relaxation one sinks and contracts tissue.

An outside observer would say you raise you arms, when you actually sink and contract while moving the arms up.
Or you seem to press down and contract from the outside, but actually you build a new, longer pathway for the force in your body by elongating along a different tissue route than an untrained person would.

In Hermetics, one would call it magnetic and electric if I understand correctly. (Huge shoutout to Peacedog. Read his blog!)
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