BJJ framing and Peng

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby johnwang on Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:16 pm

Framing (structure) is everything. When you push your opponent (both standing or on the ground), instead of pushing him back, if your structure collapse at your elbow joint, that's lacking of Peng.

Peng is needed in both cases:

1. Left leg through right arm.
2. Right leg through right arm.

IMO, 2 is harder to do than 1.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby windwalker on Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:07 pm

If one fills a ballon with air.

At some point it will reach an equilibrium according to its ability
to contain the force exerted by the air, against the outside pressure exerted by the atmosphere.

one could refer to this a pung, or peng jin.

peng jin could be said to be the tension exerted at all points equally contained
by the structure of the ballon.

the amount of or force or peng jin depends on shape, and ability to equalize inner and outer force
contained, exerted on a hollow structure independent of ground connection.

Image

Pascal's principle requires that the pressure is everywhere the same inside the balloon at equilibrium.

But examination immediately reveals that there are great differences in wall tension on different parts of the balloon.
The variation is described by Laplace's Law.


http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/ptens.html


bracing or framing is different riles on the structure itself connected to the ground.

If one can feel the ground through another, or they can through you in most cases it’s over :P
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby Bao on Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:50 am

windwalker wrote:bracing or framing is different riles on the structure itself connected to the ground.

If one can feel the ground through another, or they can through you in most cases it’s over :P


Agreed! peng(jin) is not framing or structure. The old mistake seems to last.

Ma Yueliang:
People misunderstand Peng. There is another word with the same sound and only one stroke different that means something like structure or framework and people often think this is what is meant by Peng. If you base your Taiji on this incorrect meaning of Peng then the whole of your Taiji will be incorrect. Peng Jin is over the whole body and it is used to measure the strength and direction of the partners force. But it is incorrect to offer any resistance. It should be so light that the weight of a feather will make it move. It can be described like water which will, with no intention of its own, support equally the weight of a floating leaf or the weight of a floating ship.


In fact, structure or frame is only something you use as a last resort of you have made a mistake, taken off guard etc. If you need to use frame/structure actively it means that your timing and distance is off. Peng is what you use to not be forced to compromise your natural roundness and balance. IMHO.

If you already have been taken down to the floor, it means that you have already made too many mistakes and thus you need to use things that what you wouldn't need to use if you just didn't... suck. ;)
Last edited by Bao on Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby GrahamB on Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:00 am

"If you already have been taken down to the floor, it means that you have already made too many mistakes and thus you need to use things that what you wouldn't need to use if you just didn't... suck. ;)" - Bao

I guess all those high level fighters in the UFC must suck, because they get taken down all the time!

Edit: Judo people and Mongolian Wrestlers must really suck.
Last edited by GrahamB on Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby Bao on Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:45 am

We are speaking from a taiji and internal arts perspective Graham, not from BJJ. ;)

Petty jokes aside, I did like your earlier comment: However, when using Jin you can learn to not "lock out" your arms and achieve the same results though a connected structure and a channeling of the ground force to the point required using the intent (Yi). This is "softer"."

This is a better understanding than a locked frame. The point of course, though I know how you love to play stupid and I certainly don't want to take that away from you, is that you should be light and not offer any resistance, then it's easier to take advantage of your frame. So yes, if a high level MMA fighter is dragged down, he or she sucks in tai chi.

:o ... ;D
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby GrahamB on Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:57 am

So, by your logic all these Tai Chi masters could teach these high level MMA fighters a thing or two in the Octogon?

btw Like Socrates, I'm only using stupid jokes and asking ridiculous questions to try help you try to understand how obsurd your positions on most things to do with practical fighting are. It comes from a place of deep love for your poor blinkered soul <3
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby Bao on Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:05 am

"So, by your logic all these Tai Chi masters could teach these high level MMA fighters a thing or two in the Octogon?"

YOU spoke about fighting in a ring/octagon or whatever, I didn't. Why would anyone who is not a high level MMA fighter go against a high level MMA fighter? (and also in their own favourite environment?) It doesn't make sense.

But if a tai chi player practiced fighting with and competed against top level UFC fighters for ten or fifteen years, I am sure that he or she could. You need a certain amount of knowledge and experience in a certain format against experienced people from the same format. It's the same for all kinds of sports.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby LaoDan on Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:12 am

I also view pengjin as being like a properly inflated ball, balancing yin and yang (expansion and containment). It is this quality of pengjin, which involves the proprioceptors and the stretch reflex (that maintain joint angles), that allows the application aspect of pengjin. This is different from a kinetic chain type of action (e.g., from the contact of the feet with the ground, then through the legs, torso, and finally out the arms). The kinetic chain is more a property of pushing (anjin). In pengjin the joint angles are maintained by the stretch reflex, and all joints can respond simultaneously. This gives the “bounciness” or rebounding energy in response to the opponent’s attack.

The attachment point of a properly inflated ball would determine what direction something impacting it would be bounced off. Attach the ball to the floor and the tendency of the direction something rebounds from it would be different than that ball attached to a vertical wall or attached in a corner (the floor and two walls). It the quality of the ball that I think defines the energy (rebounding) rather than the attachment point. Therefore I do not define pengjin in terms of direction, although since we are typically standing (or lying) on the ground the tendency is for the rebounding direction to be up and out, and may therefore resembles “ground path” energy.

My distinction is that rebounding pengjin is the person’s joints returning to their angles due to the stretch reflex, whereas anjin is from a kinetic chain where the joints are extending. Most demonstrations of “pengjin” are, to me, a combination of pengjin followed by anjin. One rebounds the opponent, and when they are being moved away one adds anjin to push them more dramatically. Even when done seamlessly one after the other, I consider the energies to be distinct.

I do not know how this relates to BJJ framing, but it does not work with joints “locked.”
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby rojcewiczj on Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:30 am

Personally, I see the best Taiji players as being able to express the most interesting, non-violent sort of power, mainly being able to control and unbalance an opponent like a very precise sort of sumo wrestling. My main issue with Taiji, is the lack of clarity as to the exact way of using the body. In my experience, theories are overly technical or overly vague. So, when it comes to Peng, I see that at least the BJJ people have theories which make the skill development more accessible. I cant help but do a lot of personal re-ordering when it comes to Taiji theory, because I find the simple practical points to be concealed. For instance, if I keep my shoulders relaxed and then engage very quickly and intentionally with my opponent, I've been able to throw down high level wrestlers/judoka. Is that Song? Is that Peng? It seems in the IMA community, your never doing it the "right" way or have the "right" understanding and everyone has their own perspective. My hope for CMA is that it can boil itself down to a few essential, practical points that allow more people to access the special character and skills of CMA. In BJJ people can say "this is what we do" in CMA that seems much harder to pin down, even within a single "style".
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby LaoDan on Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:23 pm

If my extrapolation of the pengjin concept to modern terminology is correct, then I think the energy is fairly distinct and understandable. But modern terms and concepts like “stretch reflex” and “proprioceptors” were unknown in the past and so descriptions or analogies that were vaguer and subject to confusion had to be used instead. One could still describe pengjin as being like when a rubber ball is struck, or like something bouncing off of a drumhead. For both of these analogies (the ball and the drum) the object being struck is altered from its equilibrium (neutral) state, and the effect on the striking object is due to the ball or drumhead returning to its equilibrium state as much as possible. This is what the stretch reflex does with the human body.

If, as an example, you hold your arms in front of you as if holding a large ball to your chest, then, if your torso is stable and your arms are struck, then the stretch reflex can act like the ball rebounding energy back into the attacker. This would be using the stretch reflex for your elbow and shoulder joints. But if your torso is not stable due to poor stance, for example, then you will be moved away from the attack rather than issuing rebounding/pengjin energy (unless your back was against a wall, for example). This would be collapsing rather than maintaining equilibrium. Conversely, you can also not have pengjin if you are pushing back (i.e., resisting) against the attacking force (i.e., trying to extend your arms against the incoming force). Pengjin requires a state of equilibrium in one’s structure. If one can maintain the proper equilibrium state for all of the joints, then the ankles, knees, hips, shoulders, elbows, wrists, and lumbar, sacral and thoracic curves of the spine (i.e., the nine pearl bends) can all sum together for the pengjin rebounding force. Then it will be as if the incoming force is rebounded from the ground and back into the opponent (and appear to be like “ground force”). This would be the ideal, using all nine pearl bends, but one can always look at individual joints to see where any breaks (or “leaks” of energy) occur and get stronger pengjin when more and more of the nine pearl bends sum together with the stretch reflex for each section of the body. This would produce the most resilient and springiest structure for pengjin expression. So does pengjin equal structure? Well, structure is required, but it is not structure alone, it is what the structure allows one to produce from “rebounding” force using the stretch reflex.
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby Trick on Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:49 pm

Bao wrote:We are speaking from a taiji and internal arts perspective Graham, not from BJJ. ;)

Petty jokes aside, I did like your earlier comment: However, when using Jin you can learn to not "lock out" your arms and achieve the same results though a connected structure and a channeling of the ground force to the point required using the intent (Yi). This is "softer"."

This is a better understanding than a locked frame. The point of course, though I know how you love to play stupid and I certainly don't want to take that away from you, is that you should be light and not offer any resistance, then it's easier to take advantage of your frame. So yes, if a high level MMA fighter is dragged down, he or she sucks in tai chi.

:o ... ;D

And Mongolian wrestlers are losers if they are dropped to the ground, it’s in the ruleset, same goes for sumo and glima wrestlers....and probably same for most folk wrestling styles, one is a loser if laying on the ground........I agree if one would find oneself laying on the ground one has most probably made a mistake ... 8-)
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby Quigga on Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:34 pm

I think it's sometimes difficult to talk about CMA in practical terms because of one problem:

fighting strategy and methods overlap to a large degree with body conditioning, unlike in MMA or boxing or whatever. Without proper jibengong, CMA is worthless. So much so that I would say just condition your body enough and every move, every breath will be Tai Chi. Then it's just a matter of learning to apply your honed tools.

No coach in the corner would say: Use your curl power! Use your deadlifting force! You just use them.

In the west we got different styles of weight lifting, foam rolling, cryotherapy, maybe Feldenkrais, Pilates, that sort of stuff... But no method that looks as deep and differentiated at the body like Nei Dan.

Having methods of cultivating each part of the body is really a treasure.

Another problem, IMHO, is that you have to be lucky to find high level people...

Song for me is when you can't be joint locked anymore. Not that you escape, but the pressure dissipates evenly across the entire tissue... And when we say as flexible as a child, we mean as flexible as a child...
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby Dmitri on Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:55 pm

Pengjin is a taijiquan term, and the "rooted in the feet, etc." maxim therefore applies. Which isn't the same in BJJ, where it can be "rooted in a shoulder" or elsewhere, depending on your position at the moment.

In TJQ it is trained deliberately and specifically; in BJJ it isn't.

The general "application" idea of pengjin does appear to overlap/be similar enough to the meaning and purpose of "framing" in BJJ.

FWIW
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby johnwang on Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:40 pm

Dmitri wrote:Pengjin is a taijiquan term, and the "rooted in the feet, etc".

If you try to bend my arm, Instead of to use the reverse force to against your force, I straight and extend my arm as if water is going through my arm and shoot out from my hand. Even if my feet are not on the ground, Am I still using Peng Jing?

What does Peng has anything to do with "root in the feet"?
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Re: BJJ framing and Peng

Postby dspyrido on Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:35 pm

Saying that the framing shown in this bjj video is the same as peng found in tc is like saying that the clip you posted Johnwang is a good example of push hands.

A stiff arm that holds onto a jacket (like in judo, shuaijiow & sambo) means that as long as the grip is there then with body strength & alignment, position can be controlled.

OTOH the "softer" sticking arts rely on a nothing happening at the grip, a little going into the feet, some into the dantien and a lot on deception, lures, deflection and angles.
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