Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

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Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

Postby johnwang on Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:19 pm

A lot of good information in this clip.

Your thought?

I'm still allergic to "push".
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Re: Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

Postby johnwang on Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:58 pm

IMO, this is the missing part of the Taiji push hand training.

- connect,
- disconnect,
- connect again,
- disconnect again,
- ...

Why is this important? This is how a real fight may look like.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:09 pm

that is the Southern Tai Zhu Quan guy.
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Re: Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

Postby yeniseri on Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:14 pm

Thay kind of exchange is exactly what happens in any encounter!
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Re: Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

Postby Trick on Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:49 pm

Connect then finishing technique = disconnect ?
Last edited by Trick on Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

Postby Trick on Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:56 pm

Trick wrote:Connect then finishing technique = disconnect ?
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Re: Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

Postby johnwang on Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:08 pm

Trick wrote:Connect - finishing technique = disconnect ?

This is the missing part in the Taiji PH.

Connect - I want to feel you.
Disconnect - after I have felt you, I don't want you to feel me.

SC use the same principle. I want to grab you, but I don't want you to grab me.

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Re: Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

Postby Trick on Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:29 pm

TJQ(feestyle)PH = connect and stay connected till decide to disconnect(may be with a finishing move such as a slight well timed push, for the sake of friendliness)
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Re: Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

Postby johnwang on Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:09 pm

Trick wrote:TJQ(feestyle)PH = connect and stay connected till decide to disconnect(may be with a finishing move such as a slight well timed push, for the sake of friendliness)

To stay connected is the issue. You give your opponent a chance to feel you. Both Taiji PH and WC sticky hand are developed on equal bases. I prefer to develop on non-equal base such as I can feel you but you can't feel me.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

Postby LaoDan on Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:03 pm

I know that this thread is about push-hands without weapons, but I am including the following sword sparring video as an example of what I think that weaponless PH practice could become. Sword/jian sparring includes from non-contact, connecting, gaining control when in contact, breaking contact when attacking, defense while in contact creating openings for attacks, etc. I think that maintaining contact during PH is just one practice stage, and something more resembling what is shown in the following weapons sparring video should also be practiced.

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Re: Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

Postby Quigga on Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:21 pm

Very cool video, best Tai Chi sword I've ever seen.

As cliché as it is, the battle starts at least 3 meters from the opponent when you practice Yi... Striking and especially weapons fighting need Yi and listening into the room because of the distance you need to bridge.
Now, whether your body can keep up with what you perceive and want to do is a different question.

But wait... It's not real Tai Chi! His head isn't always on the same level ::) ;D /s

Another video I like, where I will add transcription because of poor audio is this one:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/9mDosB7SVXU[/youtube]

How do you embed videos?
Last edited by Quigga on Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

Postby marvin8 on Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:52 pm

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:Connect - finishing technique = disconnect ?

This is the missing part in the Taiji PH.

Connect/disconnect depends on distance — In throwing and grappling range, trained fighters will often connect, grab wrists or elbows and underhook.

johnwang wrote:Connect - I want to feel you.
Disconnect - after I have felt you, I don't want you to feel me.

Control (double weight) before contact — I want to control you.
After I double weight you, I chase your center — not chase hands (a wing chun principle).

This drill is not realistic enough for fighting because trained fighters may:

1. Start from outside of kicking/punching range
2. not square their shoulders (shorten reach, etc.)
3. Retract their punch.
4. Lure reaction (e.g., jab), then finish (e.g., cross)

Image

In the above clip, A (guy on left) is freezing (extending) his arm after striking while B (guy on right) does three actions: inside parry, switch hand outside, switch hand inside.

Problem: While B is doing three actions (chasing hands) to A's one action (e.g., lure w/jab), A can punch B's face (chase center):

Image

johnwang wrote:SC use the same principle. I want to grab you, but I don't want you to grab me.

https://i.postimg.cc/HsgZWm6D/sc-tearing.gif

Throwing tournaments are not self defense/fighting where you may need to defend against kicks, punches, knives, etc.

LaoDan wrote:I know that this thread is about push-hands without weapons, but I am including the following sword sparring video as an example of what I think that weaponless PH practice could become. Sword/jian sparring includes from non-contact, connecting, gaining control when in contact, breaking contact when attacking, defense while in contact creating openings for attacks, etc. I think that maintaining contact during PH is just one practice stage, and something more resembling what is shown in the following weapons sparring video should also be practiced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlJd0XtTXEI

Striking has been compared to rapier and dagger (2 weapons). One common strategy seen in the video is control by attacking high—luring opponent to block high, then attacking low.
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Re: Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

Postby Quigga on Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:53 pm

My understanding of grappling is that the hands become steel hooks, yet you don't reveal your center so as not to be thrown yourself. Attach, follow and wait for the right opportunity (or create it), then reveal your center (this is the dangerous part) and seize the enemy's center. No matter how the opponent moves, my hands grip, I follow my hands with the ground and rest of the body.

Mentally, you don't disconnect from the other until the fight is over (or you just don't want to anymore), so one part always connects. What happens on the 'outside' is less important IMO. Or just as important, else you will be an impotent fighter.
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Re: Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

Postby johnwang on Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:32 pm

Quigga wrote:Mentally, you don't disconnect from the other until the fight is over (or you just don't want to anymore), so one part always connects.

To control your opponent's leading arm is the key. The moment you have obtained that control, the moment you deflect your opponent's other arm away, and enter.
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Re: Liao Wuchang 2 men drill

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:55 pm

I like this kind of drill, but not the way that these two are trying it without 意. I trained this to toughen up my body. We call it 抗打. I don't think that it's practical for the reasons that you state, but for other reasons.

The problem with Taijiquan is that it trains form [years] before function.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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