Qianzai temple sources?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Qianzai temple sources?

Postby salcanzonieri on Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:03 pm

Bao wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote: ... if there is any historical proof other than the Li documents from the Ming dynasty that they wrote about.
I would like to know that for myself as well.


As you asked about it, you could read: Chen Style Taijiquan Collected Masterworks: The History of a Martial Art
https://www.amazon.com/Chen-Style-Taiji ... 1623173930

Here the problem is summed up pretty well, maybe better than in any other of the texts I’ve read. It explains how the name of the Qianzai temple in the Li manuscripts probably comes from a mistake, a misreading from an inscription from the preserved stone tablet (what is left of it is not much, but the inscription as a whole has been copied and preserved in a local gazetteer.)


Yep, I have that book and read that. But that makes further questions, a mistaken name, is there some other place that has the correct name?
Maybe, horrors (!) you can talk to Dr. Stephan Yan and ask him to show proof that QianZhi temple existed outside of the Li documents (which do have a connection to Chang style of Henan and thus to Xinyi Quan)

Anyways, looks like the Li cousins connection enters into Chen arts twice. Here during this time period and later in Moghou with rebel Li Jiyu, who is an expert in Shaolin Quan (500 years ago).
Here Li JiYu's Shaolin input and with it the Jiang Fa story arises, who was said to be part of the rebel group.
Then we have Zhaobao village claiming that Jiang Fa learned an art from Wang ZhongYue.

Both the Shaolin Xia Quan form and the Zhaobao TJQ does not have punches in the same place during the forms.
Chen added it in at a later time.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Qianzai temple sources?

Postby salcanzonieri on Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:07 pm

Could be that YLC learned something from Chen village and something from Zhaobao and blended them into something that eventually was called TJQ.
Looking like Small Frame Chen probably.

Later Chen got influenced by Yang TJQ and became Chen TJQ in Beijing?
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Re: Qianzai temple sources?

Postby Bao on Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:06 am

salcanzonieri wrote:Anyways, looks like the Li cousins connection enters into Chen arts twice. Here during this time period and later in Moghou with rebel Li Jiyu, who is an expert in Shaolin Quan (500 years ago)....
Both the Shaolin Xia Quan form and the Zhaobao TJQ does not have punches in the same place during the forms.
Chen added it in at a later time.


Interesting. Shaolin added later. Makes sense.


salcanzonieri wrote:Could be that YLC learned something from Chen village and something from Zhaobao and blended them into something that eventually was called TJQ.
Looking like Small Frame Chen probably.

Later Chen got influenced by Yang TJQ and became Chen TJQ in Beijing?


This is what I would believe. If you look at Wu (Hao/Wu Yuxiang) style, it's based on small frame. The interesting thing is that Wu Yuxiang never said anything that what he learned in Zhaobao was different from Yang Luchan's art. He just said that he learned things that he thought Yang had left out, sort of filled in the gaps that Yang was unwilling to teach. So this leads us to believe that what Yang taught Wu was similar. Probably in fact small frame. Large frame should have come later.

Otoh, if you look at old Wu style, they usually start off by learning a larger, or medium frame and progressively makes it smaller. So the large frame might come from a very basic teaching method, how beginners were taught.

Later when Tai Chi was already established in Beijing, it was associated with large graceful movements. If people wanted to establish Chen style, they had no other choice to teach it in a similar way.

But then again, as Wu style often teaches larger movements first, and Wu style is derived from Small frame, so it's also reasonable to believe that Chen small frame also could have been teaching the form or exercises with larger movements first. So Chen large frame might also have been developed from basic beginner's learning methods. But still, we know that Chen stylists also studied Yang style, so it's reasonable that Chen style, in one way or another, has been influenced by Yang.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Qianzai temple sources?

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:08 pm

Well, don't the Small Frame Chen people and the Large frame say that the Large frame was for beginners and eventually it becomes Small Frame with experience and age?
That's a given in all their statements.

Also, remember in Graham's thread, during the Chairman Mao years only their official version of TJQ was allowed to be practiced.
This combined the different styles, but was mostly like Yang style. This was the only form anyone was allowed to teach.
When Chen Zhaopi went to Chen village, this is what he had to teach, along with everyone recited communist sayings during each move.
That's a big deal, contaminating Chen MA.
Hence the Long Form is exactly the same sequence of movements for each style. The style adds different ideas in how to execute, but they all follow the same form.
This might be a modern invention.

Regardless, the Chen form practiced today (and with it Yang) follows the same sequence of movements and postures as Shaolin Xia Quan.
Was it always that way?

There are Small Frame lineages way older than modern day chen village stuff from Chen Zhoupi and Chen Zhoukui.
It's still the same sequence of movements that they do, so implies the connection to Shaolin sets is much much older.
Perhaps goes back to Li Jiyu meeting?
Chen Youben is supposed to be the creator of Small Frame, but from what?
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Qianzai temple sources?

Postby Trick on Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:02 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:That's a big deal, contaminating Chen MA.
Hence the Long Form is exactly the same sequence of movements for each style. The style adds different ideas in how to execute, but they all follow the same form.
This might be a modern invention.


But how does this fit with your elsewhere mentioning that all TJQ basically follow ancient Shaolin boxing and Qigong forms ?
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Re: Qianzai temple sources?

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:06 pm

Trick wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:That's a big deal, contaminating Chen MA.
Hence the Long Form is exactly the same sequence of movements for each style. The style adds different ideas in how to execute, but they all follow the same form.
This might be a modern invention.


But how does this fit with your elsewhere mentioning that all TJQ basically follow ancient Shaolin boxing and Qigong forms ?


Well, yes, because even if they were forced to use Mao's Long Life TJ, that form was still following the same pattern.
AND, it's pieces, each posture / postural movement is derived from the Shaolin Qigong sets and Quan sets.

So, it is like a snake eating itself, there is a feedback loop:
Shaolin root of Old Chen, Old Chen root of Old Yang; Old Yang root of new Yang (YCF health TJQ), new Yang root of new Chen.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Qianzai temple sources?

Postby jbb73 on Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:47 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:Well, don't the Small Frame Chen people and the Large frame say that the Large frame was for beginners and eventually it becomes Small Frame with experience and age?
That's a given in all their statements.


I don´t have the leisure to go in detail about that or other problematical points in all your claims. But no, as far as I know, at least the Small Frame people (or the big majority from what I know) don't say that.
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Re: Qianzai temple sources?

Postby yeniseri on Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:13 pm

1. We all know Yang (Luchan) studied with Chen family
2. Yang allegedly changed the Chen format to match his own "rice bowl" meaning what he learnt from his pre study of Hongquan (Allegedly) influenced Yang style.
3. Just as Chen borrowed Taizuquan, Yang used Hongquan as his template
4. I would not call it contamination but the changed format along with a philosophical base and borrowing the Buddhist, Daoist and yangsheng iconographic details, made the newfound taijiquan descriptive per style (Yang, Wu, etc) more palatable when adding the patriarchs assocuated with deities to make the newly established family styles a mainstay of heritahe and culture.
5. It is even reported amongst all sources that since Yang style got to Beijing before Chen, many believed that Yang was the originator of that softquan (neijiquan) that Chen members had to do hard work to prove they were the source.
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Re: Qianzai temple sources?

Postby Trick on Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:36 am

salcanzonieri wrote:[Mao's Long Life TJ, that form was still following the same pattern.
AND, it's pieces, each posture / postural movement is derived from the Shaolin Qigong sets and Quan sets.


Yes as I understand, Chairman Mao’s TJQ contains all essentials......
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Re: Qianzai temple sources?

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:15 am

jbb73 wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:Well, don't the Small Frame Chen people and the Large frame say that the Large frame was for beginners and eventually it becomes Small Frame with experience and age?
That's a given in all their statements.


I don´t have the leisure to go in detail about that or other problematical points in all your claims. But no, as far as I know, at least the Small Frame people (or the big majority from what I know) don't say that.


What I meant was what I have seen in various interviews, the following quote from Jarek's China from the Inside website sums up what I meant:

The practice of Chen style Taijiquan emphasizes reducing the circles from large into small, and then from small into "no circles" - the peak of perfection in the art. Historically Chen style Taijiquan was not divided into "Large Frame" and "Small Frame"; however, as far as the practice method is concerned, the teacher, in order to help the student learn the rudiments of the art faster, would enlarge the movements of the routine, so that the student would start learning from large, external circles. After a period of period of practice, when the student already learnt to move in the circular, round way, large circles were gradually reduced to small ones, external circles to internal ones, forming spiral silk reeling strength (Chan Si Jin) transferred along the strength paths (Jin Lu) on the torso, arms and legs; in this way the high level of skill would be achieved - the circles would not be expressed outside. Along with the development of Taijiquan, these different methods of practice were called "Large Frame" and "Small Frame" ("Large Circles" and "Small Circles"). The practitioners of Large Frame also emphasize reducing the circles from large to small gradually, while in Small Frame practice the circles are first enlarged; the practice processes of Large Frame and Small Frame are basically very similar, and for this reason it is said that "Large Frame is not large, Small Frame is not small".

Large Frame of Chen style Taijiquan began to spread to the outside world because of later generations of Chen clan working as caravan escorts or doing business outside the village; especially when Chen Fake (17th generation descendant of Chen clan) and Chen Zhaopei (18th generation descendant of Chen clan) were officially invited to teach martial arts in Beijing and Nanjing, Large Frame had spread and became known by common people. Since Small Frame has been passed only within the clan and because of the very strict requirements concerning relations between teacher and students, it still remains almost unknown. However nowadays Chen style "Small Frame" exponents have already begun to teach the style to outsiders, but since they got off to a late start, the style has not spread very much.
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Re: Qianzai temple sources?

Postby jbb73 on Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:26 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:
jbb73 wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:Well, don't the Small Frame Chen people and the Large frame say that the Large frame was for beginners and eventually it becomes Small Frame with experience and age?
That's a given in all their statements.


I don´t have the leisure to go in detail about that or other problematical points in all your claims. But no, as far as I know, at least the Small Frame people (or the big majority from what I know) don't say that.


What I meant was what I have seen in various interviews, the following quote from Jarek's China from the Inside website sums up what I meant:

The practice of Chen style Taijiquan emphasizes reducing the circles from large into small, and then from small into "no circles" - the peak of perfection in the art. Historically Chen style Taijiquan was not divided into "Large Frame" and "Small Frame"; however, as far as the practice method is concerned, the teacher, in order to help the student learn the rudiments of the art faster, would enlarge the movements of the routine, so that the student would start learning from large, external circles. After a period of period of practice, when the student already learnt to move in the circular, round way, large circles were gradually reduced to small ones, external circles to internal ones, forming spiral silk reeling strength (Chan Si Jin) transferred along the strength paths (Jin Lu) on the torso, arms and legs; in this way the high level of skill would be achieved - the circles would not be expressed outside. Along with the development of Taijiquan, these different methods of practice were called "Large Frame" and "Small Frame" ("Large Circles" and "Small Circles"). The practitioners of Large Frame also emphasize reducing the circles from large to small gradually, while in Small Frame practice the circles are first enlarged; the practice processes of Large Frame and Small Frame are basically very similar, and for this reason it is said that "Large Frame is not large, Small Frame is not small".

Large Frame of Chen style Taijiquan began to spread to the outside world because of later generations of Chen clan working as caravan escorts or doing business outside the village; especially when Chen Fake (17th generation descendant of Chen clan) and Chen Zhaopei (18th generation descendant of Chen clan) were officially invited to teach martial arts in Beijing and Nanjing, Large Frame had spread and became known by common people. Since Small Frame has been passed only within the clan and because of the very strict requirements concerning relations between teacher and students, it still remains almost unknown. However nowadays Chen style "Small Frame" exponents have already begun to teach the style to outsiders, but since they got off to a late start, the style has not spread very much.


Okay, so I think you intermingled the term "Large Frame"/"Small Frame" with the practice method. There is no inherent connection between the group name "Large/Small Frame" and the execution-range of the movements. (A point the would-be infallible Marvin S. didn't understand at least until last year, maybe he got it meanwhile.) The group designations are, after all we know, inventions of Tang Hao, and we can only more or less speculate about his exact reasons for that. It's well known that in Chen Xin´s book there still is no mentioning of Large Frame and Small Frame. Concerning the practice method I think you are right. At least theoretically it seems like martial arts wisdom in general, that for learning in the beginning movements can or should be bigger, than get smaller. But I have to admit, I´m not sure how conscious the Big-Frame-Lineages follow that maxim. In the lineage of Chen Peishan (and Chen Peiju) there is the Sizheng-Taijiquan a very good example for explicitly learning in that way.
Don´t know if you can read a little bit German or if there is somebody who can translate for you. But if, you should have a look in these magazines (Journal für chinesische Kampfkunst und Kultur): There is in every magazine one article about exactly the themes mentioned here, with a lot of information from not common Chinese sources.
https://www.chenxiaojia.org/shop/
And for the point, that there have been much more "Small-Frame"-Lineages than Large-Frame have a look here:
https://www.taijiquan-leippert.de/l/die-geheime-kunst/

Regards,
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Re: Qianzai temple sources?

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:37 pm

Great, thanks for the info and sources.
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Re: Qianzai temple sources?

Postby Tom on Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:43 am

Sal, if you haven't seen it yet, this 2005 interview (English translation) with Chen Peishan provides some additional perspective and information on the da jia and xiao jia in Chen taijiquan:

https://www.die-pagode.de/l/chen-peishan/
Needless to say, this is just my opinion. Please feel free to disregard it. ;D
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Re: Qianzai temple sources?

Postby robert on Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:05 am

jbb73 wrote:Okay, so I think you intermingled the term "Large Frame"/"Small Frame" with the practice method. There is no inherent connection between the group name "Large/Small Frame" and the execution-range of the movements. (A point the would-be infallible Marvin S. didn't understand at least until last year, maybe he got it meanwhile.) The group designations are, after all we know, inventions of Tang Hao, and we can only more or less speculate about his exact reasons for that. It's well known that in Chen Xin´s book there still is no mentioning of Large Frame and Small Frame.

CX's student Chen Ziming discusses this in his taijiquan manual in 1932. At that time the two styles were referred to as old frame and new frame for obvious reasons.

Chen Village Taiji divides into “old frame” and “new frame”. The new frame comes from inspired adjustments to the old frame, but both methods above all emphasize softness. This book presents the new frame. In the future, if I find any spare time, I ought to make another book about the old frame in order for students to understand what parts are old or new, and their points of similarity and difference. Then they will know how Taiji evolved.
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Re: Qianzai temple sources?

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:46 am

Tom wrote:Sal, if you haven't seen it yet, this 2005 interview (English translation) with Chen Peishan provides some additional perspective and information on the da jia and xiao jia in Chen taijiquan:

https://www.die-pagode.de/l/chen-peishan/


yes, very good, thanks
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