Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:30 pm



The application of different postures results first in the neutralization of the opponents efforts, second in breaking your opponents balance in different directions. Send them down,right or left, strait out etc. The opponent is often tripped over your legs. The ability to throw your opponent down without losing your own balance is a very high standard of historical CMA. When you reach that standard, people notice. What is special in historical CMA is not so much the way it looks as the high standard that is aimed for, when that standard is reached, then it looks special. It looks like one man walking away from their fallen opponent like they're going to check the mail.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:24 am

Since we are talking about Sanda. Here is a clip from one of my student's Sanda school class training. You can tell there are some difference between a Sanda school training and a CMA school training. Some major difference are if you train Sanda, you

- will train a lot of partner drills.
- may not have time to train your form.

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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby rojcewiczj on Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:17 pm

That seems like a good class John Wang. I don't think there's anything inherit in Sanda that keeps it from being space for expression of historical CMA skills. I think we can say that the more integrated the striking elements are with the takedowns, the closer it comes to the historical ideal, the ideal of the forms. As I see it, the issue arises when you teach striking as separate from grappling. In traditional posturers the striking aspect and the grappling aspect are all integrated into one posture. You don't sperate them in your intent. the intent is to stick (make contact), adhere (align your structure correctly), and join (send your weight into the opponent) with different styles having there preferences (mantis "hook" etc). Sanda as a rule set can be a space for applying historical postures as striking/grappling integration. It is simply not a historical way of thinking to separate striking from grappling. The irony is that MMA has become the "ultimate" simply my moving towards integration, but even still they have to teach striking arts and then grappling arts, and then try to combine them appropriately, instead of having a "theory of everything", postures that link together all combat ranges.



The better the integration, the less kick boxing, the more take-downs, the more historical skills can be expressed.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:11 pm

My clip just to prove that without cross training boxing, MT, Judo, wrestling, TKD, by using CMA such as long fist, preying mantis, SC, a Sanda person can be developed. My clip can prove that Sanda is 100% CMA.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby rojcewiczj on Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:47 pm

yes, Sanda can be 100% CMA if its individual movements are integrated into an overall action of breaking your opponents balance and taking them down if possible/appropriate. If you stop working to integrate your striking seamlessly into the take-down/un-balancing then you remain in the realm of boxing or kickboxing.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby dspyrido on Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:20 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:You don't sperate them in your intent. the intent is to stick (make contact), adhere (align your structure correctly), and join (send your weight into the opponent) with different styles having there preferences (mantis "hook" etc).


This sounds like your personal journey but it's not accurate.

Choy li fut, wc, da chen quan, hop gar, pak mei & I'm sure many others - I'm not an expert in the styles but they all teach striking as a stand alone move set to finish fast. The same is true even for xy & xylh.

If the fist can meet the face why bother adhering. I won't and neither would i teach someone to do that if not required.

As for something being 100% cma - it is 100% if is acknowledged as having Chinese origins.

There's nothing that completely unifies all the CMAs other than the country of origin/legend of founder. The amount of richness in the variety is so huge that is it impossible to unify them as they teach so many conflicting strategies.

Sanda simply put is a merging of cma striking & takedowns with kick boxing. Country of origin is China.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby rojcewiczj on Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:21 pm

Yes, I definitely am speaking about my own personal journey and the lessons I've learned. I understand there are numerous strategies being taught from different teachers. My own point is to say that if we look at the unique aesthetic and physical qualities of CMA, I feel the differences that exist in comparison to kickboxing can be understood better if we consider CMA as moving towards the control and takedown from striking. In Sanda, if neither player moves towards the take-down then they end up kickboxing. Why is that? we could think that its because they were taught to kickbox at certain range, and I think thats true, but why kickbox at striking range? I believe the reason is that if you stand apart from someone with the only goal being to strike them, then some form of kickboxing is the most direct, simple way to accomplish that goal. I don't believe that CMA movements have anything to offer over kickboxing if you remain at kickboxing range. If we go to the other end of the range spectrum than we see wrestling styles as being the most direct, effective way to fight if you are only in grappling range (with differences across rule sets). So why does historical CMA look the way it does, or even exist for that matter? In my experience, historical CMA can offer numerous ingenious methods to quickly and fluently traverse from striking range to grappling range for a quick take-down, when Sanda athletes approach the sport with the same intent then they exemplify something of CMA, otherwise they are kickboxing.

One question I have is, if there truly is any CMA is geared towards finishing a fight a kickboxing range, can anyone really make that style work at kickboxing range well enough to warrant their stylistic differences?
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby .Q. on Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:33 pm

戳腳 (Stabbing foot style) probably fights at kickboxing range. I've seen only 1 sparring session online where a dude used it and looks decent, and it's observably different than common kickboxing. I would like to learn some if it's available near me.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:54 pm

Wow so much discussion on a topic that has been rehashed so much.

The issue with Sanda, is not that it is not CMA, but that the format, rules, and equipment lead to a certain set of techniques becoming standard. Just because all the standard techniques can be found in CMA, does not mean that all CMA techniques can or will be used in Sanda. A simple example is weapon techniques. They obviously cannot be used in Sanda, but are part of CMA. All systems evolve within their ruleset. Just look at Pride vs UFC. Both were MMA but you almost never saw anyone intentionally move to a north south position on the bottom in Pride because they could be kneed to the head. While that is not an uncommon maneuver in UFC. Due to the rounds, gloves, head gear, rules for strikes, length of clench, etc. Sanda has developed its own set of techniques which are effective in that format. The more open a format is the more general cross over that competitive system will have with others.

I find it sad that the country which invented so many different fighting styles and so much other unique things keeps trying to look for validation by copying other systems.

The fact is that using your styles stances, strikes, locks, and throws is hard. As John said it can take a long time to develop skill. Even longer when so many systems lost the method of using skill, which is free sparring. There is a reason GM Chang emphasized sparring so much, it is how you learn to actually use your skills. Sparring is Traditional CMA and there are Traditional ways of practicing it. For the most part, techniques in CMA are all included because they at one point worked for someone.

While MMA focuses on the "high percentage" techniques, now that the sport has matured you are seeing more people who have some skill that is more unique that helps them excel. If you approach CMA forms as a catalog, then a good teacher helps the student develop their own techniques that work for them. This may even be a new technique. It can then be added to the catalog so future students can try it out. Using myself as an example I can't really do a triangle choke, my legs are too big and don't bend that way very well. That move isn't suited to me, but others are.

The fact is that if you train Kung Fu, and you do forms, and drills, and stances, and they all are Kung Fu, then when you spar you do kickboxing, you are not really doing kung fu. Your training should match your fighting, and vice versa. They don't train soldiers with a pistol then issue them a rifle for a reason.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby rojcewiczj on Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:09 pm

regardless of the reasons why Sanda is the way it is. Until TCMA understands the range of it own application better, TCMA practitioners will be making a weak argument whenever they assert the validity of their methods.



Above you can see someone who practices TCMA's and understand the intended range for application. I think its extremely interesting that even northern longfist, which of all styles might seem the most long range centric, is still applied most effectively at extremely close range.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby dspyrido on Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:29 pm

Sanda is not representative of all CMAs. No CMA is.

Sanda as an evolved system it teaches a subset of CMA moves that can be used to test them more freely, with some real impact but in a safe-ish environment.

As a reference the long range letai fights from last century evolved to include a lot more head cover and basic boxing. Hence sanda was born.

That said it's not the same as kickboxing for a few reasons which can include rules eg scoring systems are different, throws, in some cases kicks to legs, in some cases strikes like back first and hammer fists.

What space does it occupy in a world of boxing, kickboxing and wrestling?

It is a mistake to think that training in say kickboxing and judo will automatically allow someone to translate two styles into a cohesive system. It takes time and analysis to drop moves out of one style and work out how to merge them into another. Eg gi manipulation is useless in kickboxing.

Sanda for example can be viewed as poor boxing. It is with that lense because sanda people won't spend a lot of time on slipping, swaying and rolling. Why? Because for example a slip is open to a rear round house.

In the end the space it fills is merging striking range with stand up grappling. The fact it does not continue on the ground is also pretty aligned with SOME CMAs philosophy. SOME not all.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:26 pm

If you start to teach your student Sanda, how will you start? I'll use the following steps.

1. Use foot sweep to set up another kick.
2. Use kick to set up a jab.

After that, the jab can be changed into a pull followed by a

- cross, or
- hook.

The training is really very simple and straight forward.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby .Q. on Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:10 am

rojcewiczj wrote:regardless of the reasons why Sanda is the way it is. Until TCMA understands the range of it own application better, TCMA practitioners will be making a weak argument whenever they assert the validity of their methods.



Above you can see someone who practices TCMA's and understand the intended range for application. I think its extremely interesting that even northern longfist, which of all styles might seem the most long range centric, is still applied most effectively at extremely close range.

That clip's title literally says Northern Shaolin Short Fist.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby windwalker on Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:59 am

rojcewiczj wrote:regardless of the reasons why Sanda is the way it is. Until TCMA understands the range of it own application better, TCMA practitioners will be making a weak argument whenever they assert the validity of their methods.


There are CMA styles and methods built around "hitting" understanding range, controlling it, using it.
No need for them to assert or prove, the "validity of their methods" For those doubting, should be quite easy to find and test it.
If one really want to know ;)

Mike Staples :

“So again, the footwork is tied to the horse, and so are all of the long-arm techniques.
without the footwork and the horse, the long-arm techniques won’t make sense, and won’t work properly.

Image

But unlike some styles that practice one way, and spar or fight another way, the White Crane techniques are meant to be used as practiced…

“precisely as practiced.”



example of movement, reflective of how its used.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT8yjbX1ZaY

Old video of a White Crane Set (?) circa 1983. Students of Sifu Ron Dong and Sifu John Cole. Recorded at the school of Sifu John Cole in Vallejo, Ca..
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby windwalker on Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:43 am

]Sanda is not representative of all CMAs. No CMA is.

Kind of an odd statement considering that no CMA claims to be.
The claim by most that they are of Chinese origin reflective of or historical methods used.

“Sanda “ Could be considered a CMA style of it’s own reflective of the format it’s used in.
If one studies CMA history it should be very understandable why no one single style would lay the claim of being representative of all CMA styles.

“Sanda “ fills this role nicely, allowing competitors from all styles to compete in a freeform format that can be representative of all CMA within this format.

Most traditional schools understanding this, will adapt and train their fighters specifically to this format for those who want to compete. Often having separate training for those interested in Sanda within a given style .

Depending on level of expertise the fighting style of the fighter will be reflective of the flavor of the style while not necessarily being able to claim it represents the style.
Just as those in MMA events it’s very clear of the backgrounds in boxing, Grappling ect.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
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