Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

[MaartenSFS]

You ignore the knowledge of those more experienced with CMA and every word that you type further solidifies our opinion that you are nothing but a troll. I'm only replying so that new people aren't misled by your ignorant bullshit. Like Windwalker said, China is huge and these fighters are locally known. It is not up to them to prove to your entitled arse that they exist. Your ego is astounding.

[marvin8]

You ignore the knowledge of those more experienced with CMA ... Like Windwalker said, China is huge and these fighters are locally known.

No. Quite the opposite, I asked to elaborate on the statements made (e.g., names, etc).

[dspyrido]

What is modernised?

Drills and training.

How do they differ and where do they not overlap?

In general, forms, push hands, partner drills with contact, etc. vs shadowboxing, bagwork, padwork, partner drills with no contact/distance, etc.

General or not those views are incorrect.

Modern? "shadowboxing, bagwork, padwork, partner drills/no contact range" this stuff has been around for millenia.

Traditional? "forms, push hands, contact partner drills" - many styles of CMA go beyond the form. Some even do away with it almost completely.

As a short list I have seen these styles do padwork, bagwork, sparring (not from contact) etc. - you can find examples of fighty schools doing xinyi, hsing-i, baji. ziramen, tang lang, WC, taichi, yi quan and many others putting on gloves and going for it.

But when people really want to go for it and not kill the opponent ... what rules do they use? Answer: Sanda is well established & seems at least moderately safe hence why CMA schools also train to compete by removing illegal moves from their systems and refining for the ring.

[Trick]

You are right Marvin. I have presented weak arguments as to why IMA is not seen in MMA. Anecdotes are not enough. Will come back later.

According to the OP article, IMA is seen in MMA.

The OP article and Ramsey (who differ on the definition of sanda) say modern training is superior to TCMA and TCMAist should evolve their training. Whoever disagrees, what training, attributes, etc do you feel are superior to modern training and highest ranked sport fighters?

Why are “modern” fighters that are busy training for fights in the ring or on the mat against other “modern” fighters worried about TCMA practice methods ? Or maybe it’s not those fighters that are worried, maybe it’s an entirely different group that worries so?

[Trick]

You ignore the knowledge of those more experienced with CMA ... Like Windwalker said, China is huge and these fighters are locally known.

No. Quite the opposite, I asked to elaborate on the statements made (e.g., names, etc).

Why would anyone want to post names of practitioners/teachers who choose to keep low profile? ....I can understand for many nowadays it’s “if it’s not on the net, it doesn’t exists”....
However there’s actually a world out there, why not do as your friends WW and Maarten, travel to China stay around for awhile, have a look of the real outside world.....

[marvin8]

You are right Marvin. I have presented weak arguments as to why IMA is not seen in MMA. Anecdotes are not enough. Will come back later.

According to the OP article, IMA is seen in MMA.

The OP article and Ramsey (who differ on the definition of sanda) say modern training is superior to TCMA and TCMAist should evolve their training. Whoever disagrees, what training, attributes, etc do you feel are superior to modern training and highest ranked sport fighters?

Why are “modern” fighters that are busy training for fights in the ring or on the mat against other “modern” fighters worried about TCMA practice methods ? Or maybe it’s not those fighters that are worried, maybe it’s an entirely different group that worries so?

Mason Zhong author of the OP article and Hoi Wah Ho, being Chinese and TCMAists, have an interest in preserving and "making kung fu great again by evolving in the modern world." They proposed solutions in the OP article and video and welcome discussions on the topic.

[marvin8]

You ignore the knowledge of those more experienced with CMA ... Like Windwalker said, China is huge and these fighters are locally known.

No. Quite the opposite, I asked to elaborate on the statements made (e.g., names, etc).

Why would anyone want to post names of practitioners/teachers who choose to keep low profile?

Windwalker and MaartenSFS wanted to post there were "locally known fighters." So, I asked their names.

[Trick]

[
No. Quite the opposite, I asked to elaborate on the statements made (e.g., names, etc).

Why would anyone want to post names of practitioners/teachers who choose to keep low profile?

Windwalker and MaartenSFS wanted to post there were "locally known fighters." So, I asked their names.

And you would then travel to meet them, or search the Internt for videos .......

[Trick]

According to the OP article, IMA is seen in MMA.

The OP article and Ramsey (who differ on the definition of sanda) say modern training is superior to TCMA and TCMAist should evolve their training. Whoever disagrees, what training, attributes, etc do you feel are superior to modern training and highest ranked sport fighters?

Why are “modern” fighters that are busy training for fights in the ring or on the mat against other “modern” fighters worried about TCMA practice methods ? Or maybe it’s not those fighters that are worried, maybe it’s an entirely different group that worries so?

Mason Zhong author of the OP article and Hoi Wah Ho, being Chinese and TCMAists, have an interest in preserving and "making kung fu great again by evolving in the modern world." They proposed solutions in the OP article and video and welcome discussions on the topic.

ok, So it’s the “other(different) group then,,,kind of the rootless ones

[marvin8]

No. Quite the opposite, I asked to elaborate on the statements made (e.g., names, etc).

Why would anyone want to post names of practitioners/teachers who choose to keep low profile?

Windwaler and MaartenSFS wanted to post there were "locally known fighters." So, I asked their names.

And you would then travel to meet them, or search the Internt for videos .......

I may consider it after viwing videos and using critical thinking.

[MaartenSFS]

There are no videos!!! How are you still confused???

My Master is one of them. He lived in cities all over China and used to ride a bicycle to parks in every city with two pairs of boxing gloves around his neck, looking for fights. If they beat him he'd ask to learn from them. This type of thing happened all the time back then and still does today. He's just one example. I have introduced people to him that find it worth their time and effort to travel from Japan and Germany to learn from him.

There is no need to make CMA great again by "modernising" them. What is needed is for people to seek out proper masters like I did and train hard and fucking spar. Since young Chinese are not interested for the most part this leaves a few dedicated (and mad) foreigners to take up the mantle, but even many of those won't spar. CMA are doomed to die and people like you help to drive the nail in the coffin by spouting your bullshit. The lack of quality CMA abroad does not represent that massive and relatively closed-off country that is China and you won't find it from videos from the comfort of your home.

It took me seven long years to find my Master, even living and training in China and speaking Chinese. I met some skilled masters before that, but once I started learning from my Master it opened a door to a whole new world that was previously hidden from me. When I left China after the first four years I had studied only Sanda and felt like TCMA were dead. The second time that I lived in China I discovered that this was not true at all - I just didn't know where to look and didn't have the connections. They will be dead soon, anyways...

[marvin8]

What is modernised?

Drills and training.

How do they differ and where do they not overlap?

In general, forms, push hands, partner drills with contact, etc. vs shadowboxing, bagwork, padwork, partner drills with no contact/distance, etc.

General or not those views are incorrect.

Modern? "shadowboxing, bagwork, padwork, partner drills/no contact range" this stuff has been around for millenia.

Traditional? "forms, push hands, contact partner drills" - many styles of CMA go beyond the form. Some even do away with it almost completely.

As a short list I have seen these styles do padwork, bagwork, sparring (not from contact) etc. - you can find examples of fighty schools doing xinyi, hsing-i, baji. ziramen, tang lang, WC, taichi, yi quan and many others putting on gloves and going for it.

Can you post a video of standard TCMA pad work and partner drills that are at the same level as modern combat training?

"Q&A with Master Chen Bing:"

New Beginning: Taijiquan, dare to take on a supermatch with Sanda?

Chen Bing: Greetings New Beginning! Are you just curious, or do you have some particularly fascinating ideas? Sanda originated from traditional wushu but exceeds folk martial arts in many aspects including training methods, intensity, practical combat applications, body recovery, nutrition, as well as selection of athletes. Though related, there are many differences [between taijiquan and sanda]. Why not learn from each other and improve together? I think that would be more pragmatic and important than calling dares.

[Quigga]

Part One:

I want to say this with as much sensitivity as I can... IMA and Nei Dan are both very close to my heart. I started with Tai Chi and Qi Gong when I was 14. And my search for the roots of Tai Chi led me to being accepted as part of the 23rd generation of the "Northern Dragongate School of Complete Reality"... I spent two and half weeks in China, guess I was very very very lucky.....

But, IMO, we are arguing against Marvin in a counterproductive way...

With all respect, leave out your relationship to the style(s) you personally practice and all the fond memories you made on the way...

From an 'outsider' perspective, we are arguing on a bullshido level right now... No matter how much we explain cultural differences...

To dramatize quite a bit:

"Dude, there are like, super strong people in China. People who train in the hidden art of Golden Eagle Claw Eight Gates Boxing. They are so able to kill everyone else. All those MMA fighters got no crap against the underground Ninjas in China! Why would the 108th Patriarch of Long Flow Kicking have to proof anything? I saw him kill someone, like, totally. And I heard his students talk about his untouched winning streak... Untouched 'cause he maimed everyone, without ever allowing his fool of an enemy to touch him. Like, really. But they keep secret you know, so I can't tell you anything more about them... "

Uuuuugh, writing this physically hurt me

I think we might actually need a modern Chinese person (reincarnated ones count too I guess) to utterly dominate MMA. Or else those fighting arts might really die out... It's not about who's the best anymore or getting famous. It's about getting a message out there, out in the public, that these arts are worthwhile to practice and maybe we can preserve our heritage... At least I hope so.

A withered tree doesn't bear fruits and all that...

[MaartenSFS]

Don't you feel like you are entitled when you demand evidence from these people to prove their own culture? In an ideal world the alarm would be sounded and all of these fighters would come and show the world that Chinese Gongfu is worth preserving. This is China, though, and for many, very valid reasons (and some that are not) they do not want to do that. If it hasn't happened yet it is unlikely to happen. I injured my foot and had to change my focus to swordsmanship and am trying to spread the message about that. Hopefully some young Chinese men decides to go on a crusade and save at least some styles of Gongfu...

[Quigga]

I don't feel entitled to anything... I get exactly what I deserve, as does everybody else...

Proving the worth of your culture is a mandatory part of our modern global dialogue... Battles are won with information nowadays... In this discussion, maybe we can find what exactly each culture brings to the table for us as a species and maybe create a meta-culture, suitable for progressing beyond our Era... But this will be a long, tedious process with a lot of hopefully peaceful back and forth...

The alarm was already triggered, the gong was hit... But not everyone is able to, wants to, or has the peace and clarity of mind to hear it...

I do not dispute that the reasons these skilled fighters put forth to explain why they're not fighting in 'modern standards' are valid. I know nothing about those individuals' lifes. The risk of persecution by the People's Party is very real.....

I'm not angry that our 'potential martial heroes' chose not to sacrifice their personal lives... Everybody has different goals and ideals and we're just humans after all...

Crusade... I will sleep better at night now knowing everything can always change...