Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby windwalker on Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:11 am

that these arts are worthwhile to practice


This is backwards. It should be that one is worthwhile to practice these arts.


Most traditional teachers, Unless one is invited by one of their students will test the person in many different ways while training them, unless one is invited by one of their students will test the person in many different ways before training them.

JW, mentioned that sometimes the teacher has to take back the art they taught somebody.

I fail to understand people asking for proof outside of their experience
When only through their experience will provide any real answers
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:19 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Quigga on Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:30 am

I don't care, they can have it all back for what it's worth. Maybe I'm not worthy. Maybe I was and now I'm not. Or I still am. It's all the same to me.

One should be worthwhile to practice these arts... That means that people still have a healthy idea of what "being worth it as a person' is. I'd say we thoroughly lost this.

Is having a family worthwhile?
Is having kids worthwhile?
Is being married worthwhile?
Is living life in a way that "nourishes good" worthwhile?

All these questions are up for dispute now more than ever... For me it's common sense after spending a lot of time denying it. What healthy version of life would choose not to continue itself?

Also, for "One should be worthwhile to practice these arts" to work, those gems need to be precious and admired or else nobody would take the necessary burdens on themselves to qualify and progress. Some people do despite this, no doubt.

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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Quigga on Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:37 am

I fail to understand people asking for proof outside of their experience
When only through their experience will provide any real answers


Why does Mikhail Ryabko teach so much? If their horizon is not broad enough to grasp it at the time, isn't it your duty to open up their sky? And then... Define what real answers are.
Last edited by Quigga on Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:33 pm

Quigga wrote:But, IMO, we are arguing against Marvin in a counterproductive way...

But, marvin8 isn't arguing. He only posted an article for possible discussion.

Quigga wrote:Untouched 'cause he maimed everyone, without ever allowing his fool of an enemy to touch him. Like, really. But they keep secret you know, so I can't tell you anything more about them... "

Correction, they did not say it's a secret. They said A:
windwalker wrote:China is a big place, with many people, people who are known as fighters are known as such for a reason.
MaartenSFS wrote:Like Windwalker said, China is huge and these fighters are locally known.

B: What are the names of these known fighters?
A: It is not up to them to prove to your entitled arse that they exist.
B: But, you said they were known. -shrug-

A: U.S. is a big place. There are known fighters for a reason.
B: What are the names of these known fighters?
A: Khabib Nurmagomedov, Conor McGregor, Floyd Mayweather Jr., Mike Tyson, etc.
B: Thank you.

Quigga wrote:I think we might actually need a modern Chinese person (reincarnated ones count too I guess) to utterly dominate MMA. Or else those fighting arts might really die out... It's not about who's the best anymore or getting famous. It's about getting a message out there, out in the public, that these arts are worthwhile to practice and maybe we can preserve our heritage... At least I hope so.

Per the OP article, we have one: Zhang Weili, UFC Women's Strawweight Champion.

Mason Zhong on Aug 5, 2020 wrote:• While Sanda has foreign influence, saying Sanda isn't CMA is like saying Sambo isn't Russian.
• More work needs to be done to educate ignorant CMA practitioners.
• Most people have a blatant misconception of what CMA fighting should look like, due to misinterpretation of techniques, influence of kung fu films and wushu forms etc.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:54 pm

- The 1st CMA problem is it takes too much time to develop some dependable skill.

When I competed in tournament, my head lock was not strong enough. When my head lock was strong enough, I don't compete in tournament any more. I would love to wrestle with my old training partner and test my head lock on him again (he has a big neck and my head lock didn't work on him before). But he won't wrestle with me any more.

- The 2nd CMA problem is it has too many forms. The long fist system has 10 open hand forms and 6 weapon forms (there are more in the long fist system). When you train form, you don't have much time left to train in the ring.

- The 3rd CMA problem is the face. When you become a teacher, you may not want to take the chance of losing. Many CMA masters became teachers too soon. They lost the chance to test their skill in the ring too early.

Until we can solve those issues, to send CMA fighters to the MMA ring can be difficult.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Quigga on Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:58 pm

Marvin:
Call it whatever you want. We are having a debate in a public space. In this public space, some people choose this point of view, some choose that. You chose (or have) your POV, since the basic assumptions you have about the topic at hand don't seem to change. Ergo I can assume the basic suppositions you have via the ways you resist change. I chose to try to understand your POV so I can manipulate you better in a way I would feel is beneficial.

For me, we are very much still arguing.

'They keep it a secret.'
Well, obviously the one's keeping it secret are not the publically known fighters. It doesn't change the fact that they exist. I merely wanted to point out that arguing whether Special Force One or Special Force Two is better is ridiculous.

And as to why people may be hesitant to give out names... Why should you get the same answer without investing the same efforts? Note that I pose this question without prejudice in either way.

I think we try to compare what is seen as modern MMA fighters with what is seen as a specific Chinese subculture. Both with their own rituals and way of behavior. MMA culture doesn't have the same intent as TCMA culture.

It takes a stupid amount of work to fundamentally change the way your being works. Without looking at Zhang Weili fighting (I promise I will) I would say she hasn't done the work some people here think of. Another point is that working on your body many times doesn't mean you become a better fighter. You can have it but be too inhibited to use it. Maybe then you haven't got it after all.

Sanda isn't !T!CMA. It doesn't come from the same environment and has a different intent. The more you bastardise something, the less of its original essence is preserved.

Simply put, modern martial arts culture is not the same way of living life as traditional martial arts culture. How can you compare styles of living? Only by comparing at what these intent lines aim at.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Quigga on Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:02 pm

All that being said, I still strive for a productive Middle ground that can balance out so both sides of culture get mutual nourishment.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:12 pm

Quigga wrote:Marvin:
Call it whatever you want. We are having a debate in a public space. In this public space, some people choose this point of view, some choose that. You chose (or have) your POV, since the basic assumptions you have about the topic at hand don't seem to change. Ergo I can assume the basic suppositions you have via the ways you resist change. I chose to try to understand your POV so I can manipulate you better in a way I would feel is beneficial.

Please quote my POV, because I don't believe I gave one. Happy to discuss whatever topic. I believe you are arguing with the OP article, Ramsey or Hoi Wah Ho. I replied to the trapping comment with logic/physics which is not an opinion.

Quigga wrote:And as to why people may be hesitant to give out names... Why should you get the same answer without investing the same efforts? Note that I pose this question without prejudice in either way.

Known fighters = names are known, not secret (possible redflag).

Quigga wrote:Without looking at Zhang Weili fighting (I promise I will) I would say she hasn't done the work some people here think of.

Then, you are arguing with the OP article (which is fine), not me. Because, I did not give an opinion on Zhang Weili.

Quigga wrote:Sanda isn't !T!CMA. It doesn't come from the same environment and has a different intent. The more you bastardise something, the less of its original essence is preserved.

Then you may disagree with the OP article and Hoi Wah Ho. I didn't give an opinion.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Quigga on Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:38 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Quigga wrote:You are right Marvin. I have presented weak arguments as to why IMA is not seen in MMA. Anecdotes are not enough. Will come back later.

According to the OP article, IMA is seen in MMA.

The OP article and Ramsey (who differ on the definition of sanda) say modern training is superior to TCMA and TCMAist should evolve their training. Whoever disagrees, what training, attributes, etc do you feel are superior to modern training and highest ranked sport fighters?


I've based my opinion on users here on what they post, how they evolve, parts of their biography they shared... I've been here for almost ten years , since I was sixteen. I noticed how Marteen and Windwalker established themselves with their first posts, how they struggled to share their truth... Many people here have inspired and shaped me. The archives here are a gem. I've spent many nights until 2 or 3am reading here and made many mistakes. So, thank you all for guiding me in a way. I hope I don't have to make so many mistakes anymore.
I know little about Marvin.

You asked something, I overlooked it.

What training and attributes are superior, very nice specific question.

Training and attributes go hand in hand, there is little sense disconnecting the two...
You let the attributes train you. Connecting to chosen attributes in an energetic and mental-spiritual way. Very important to always retain the ability to control. So no always remaining ego denial as much I wanted that. Instead dying and rebirth.
Anyway.

Energies and spiritual realms correspond to certain tissues in the body. Tune in and the tissue gets work. Control the tune and you control the outcome.

Doing this becomes much easier when you work the body directly and more practically beforehand.

Learning to use different states of body instead of just technique. Techniques feed off the body state. Different conditioning programs result in different outcomes.

Feeling the other person is faster than hearing is faster than seeing. Feeling doesn't need body contact, as anyone would agree I think. Then, acting via feeling and letting it connect with strength. Very intimate process.

Lowering the stress response to fighting. Culitvating calm, cold, malicious intent. Using this intent.

More power, speed and elasticity, more freedom in movement both offensive and defensive.

Not fighting at all, just acting in a focus directed manner to explicitly hurt the other person, as if it were completely normal.

I was a very violent child. When I progressed through my Liver Qi Stagnation later on, my view of fighting and possible moves and perceived opportunities changed. It would have been so easy to smash a lady's head into the wall as I walked next to her. So easy to pull down a cashier by her hair and slam her head downwards as she worked.

When I think of Bagua, I always picture the easiest move to be to step behind the person while using my elbow crease to catch their throat. We would both be looking in the same direction. Then just yank backwards and downwards, opening their front neck upwards and forwards. Making their noise touch their ass while holding on. Very quick.

When you limit this intent, you limit your opportunities. Training to kill is not the same as training to fight rounds.

Most IMA demoes in public circulation don't involve high pressure enemies, so many things won't look as pretty as they could when it comes down.

Then again, it all depends on how far you take the energetic level as an effective transmitter between killing intent and instrument.

Oh, and all the emotional release and resilience you get and need so you don't become insane.

Are you looking for more specific drills and training instructions to develop abilities?
Last edited by Quigga on Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Quigga on Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:43 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Quigga wrote:Marvin:
Call it whatever you want. We are having a debate in a public space. In this public space, some people choose this point of view, some choose that. You chose (or have) your POV, since the basic assumptions you have about the topic at hand don't seem to change. Ergo I can assume the basic suppositions you have via the ways you resist change. I chose to try to understand your POV so I can manipulate you better in a way I would feel is beneficial.

Please quote my POV, because I don't believe I gave one. Happy to discuss whatever topic. I believe you are arguing with the OP article, Ramsey or Hoi Wah Ho. I replied to the trapping comment with logic/physics which is not an opinion.

Quigga wrote:And as to why people may be hesitant to give out names... Why should you get the same answer without investing the same efforts? Note that I pose this question without prejudice in either way.

Known fighters = names are known, not secret (possible redflag).

Quigga wrote:Without looking at Zhang Weili fighting (I promise I will) I would say she hasn't done the work some people here think of.

Then, you are arguing with the OP article (which is fine), not me. Because, I did not give an opinion on Zhang Weili.

Quigga wrote:Sanda isn't !T!CMA. It doesn't come from the same environment and has a different intent. The more you bastardise something, the less of its original essence is preserved.

Then you may disagree with the OP article and Hoi Wah Ho. I didn't give an opinion.


Maybe we don't disagree? It was nice seeing how the emotions played out.
Quigga

 

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby everything on Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:48 pm

the tma vs. mma debate ended in 1992 more or less. sanda is/was such a cool format, but royce came along and changed everything. it'd be cool for sanda to continue.

there are some problems based on people's return on time invested.

if someone wants competition, the more popular sports are much more difficult to do well at, relatively speaking, due to much better and more available participants. if you only like combat sports, you should do the most popular ones (again, better/more competition). this has nothing to do with where some aspect of some ma came from. if you're not looking at global popularity/availability, your niche is just too niche. i mean, more power to you to keep some niches going, though.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:33 pm

I feel happy that you went back and read the old threads and found them beneficial on your journey. If I could go back in time to before I injured my foot I would study Baguazhang from my Master. The way that he used it during a fight was absolutely brilliant.

During my first week of training with him I witnessed a closed-door fight between him and a visiting Xinyiliuhequan master. The fight was epic and each master fully employed their arsenals of traditional techniques. That was all of the convincing that I needed that I was on the right path and I followed or exceeded my Master's instructions to the letter every day for years until I finally saw that these skills had also developed within me and that I could now make the art my own.

It was all worth it, but it's a shame that my foot prevents me from reaching my full potential in unarmed fighting and that I have failed in my quest to be able to represent my Master and his masters. My swordsmanship, on the other hand, is not limited in this way, hence my change of focus.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby .Q. on Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:38 pm

It's weird how practical CMA is discussed as if it's a magical unicorn that one has to commit to moving to an exotic land to learn. There are plenty of people teaching it in the west. It might be necessary to move to China if you're looking for the best of the best or something rare but if you have no connections, I bet your chance of finding decent schools that spar in the US is actually higher than in China. China is way too big and have all these layers of tradition and customs you have to get through first. If you lower your expectations from what master level CMA looks like to just reasonably practical usage, then it's much easier to find.
I just randomly googled preying mantis sparring and some of these guys at least actually use proper stances when they spar. I see recognizable techniques applied in the right situation occasionally. I've seen better but I've only searched for a few minutes.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:14 am

.Q. wrote:It's weird how practical CMA is discussed as if it's a magical unicorn that one has to commit to moving to an exotic land to learn.

Agree! One can learn Sanda in US as well.

In the following clip, this white guy has 100% training in CMA (long fist and SC). The interested part of this clip is this guy tries to use the same combo 4 times.

- Roundhouse kick,
- Side kick,
- Clinch,
- Outer hook the back standing leg.

It works for the first 2 times (0.02, 0.13). It fails for the others (0.51, 1.09). It prove that "combo training" is unique in CMA and work. It also proves that the same plan may only work during the beginning. A CMA guy always fight with a plan, not just fight any way that he may feel like to.

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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Trick on Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:45 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Don't you feel like you are entitled when you demand evidence from these people to prove their own culture? In an ideal world the alarm would be sounded and all of these fighters would come and show the world that Chinese Gongfu is worth preserving. This is China, though, and for many, very valid reasons (and some that are not) they do not want to do that. If it hasn't happened yet it is unlikely to happen. I injured my foot and had to change my focus to swordsmanship and am trying to spread the message about that. Hopefully some young Chinese men decides to go on a crusade and save at least some styles of Gongfu...

Here in my neighborhood a big TKD school opened last year, on their sign/logo it’s say in Chinese and English “Chinese Tae Kwon Do” the Club Training suit/gi comes in military camouflage, their students are just kids and I can imagine they feel super cool in those Gi’s

I know the head teacher at one of the universities wushu section here, I sometimes go there, they have a steady flow of kids practicing there, however they adapted some TKD stuff for the young ones....
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