Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:03 pm

johnwang wrote:
klonk wrote: Are a thousand days of internal gongfu (old meaning, man work, meaning you work and thus you develop) better than a thousand days of external?

When you throw a punch, if your opponent blocks it, you can use your punching arm to pull his blocking arm, and then punch with another hand. If you just train this single technique 100 times daily for 1000 days, you should have repeated this over 100,000 time. You should have developed "punch, grab, and punch" as your "door guarding" skill.

CMA has the solution. But most people just don't spend their training time in those useful area.

https://i.postimg.cc/N06fVMbg/Bruce-arm-jam.gif

Can you answer my earlier question?

marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?

I assume Ding Hao repeated Lop Sao Da "over 100,000 times." Why do you think Ding didn't
"throw a punch, if his opponent blocks it, he can use his punching arm to pull his blocking arm, and then punch with another hand?"

Excerpt from "Wing chun ‘master’ Ding Hao taunts Chinese MMA fighter, gets knocked out in 72 seconds:"

Nick Atkin on 21 Oct, 2019 wrote:Ding rushes forward, not guarding himself at all, and tried to engage A Hu with wing chun trapping techniques, but ended up eating a barrage of punches.

A Hu then hits him with a bunch of Muay Thai knees in the clinch, rendering Ding’s trapping useless.


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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:50 pm

marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?

I don't have any clip right now. In Karate tournament point system fight, the following technique is very common:

- You throw a jab at your opponent's head.
- When he blocks your punch.
- You grab on his blocking arm.
- You throw a back hand reverse punch on his chest at the same time.
- When you do that, you make a loud noise and look at the referee at the same time.

I have seen Karate guys trained this simple combo over and over.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Trick on Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:16 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?

I don't have any clip right now. In Karate tournament point system fight, the following technique is very common:

- You throw a jab at your opponent's head.
- When he blocks your punch.
- You grab on his blocking arm.
- You throw a back hand reverse punch on his chest at the same time.
- When you do that, you make a loud noise and look at the referee at the same time.

I have seen Karate guys trained this simple combo over and over.

Now I don know how tournament karate works in the US, but my experience from JKA and WUKO competition when you strike it’s committed you want to nail a score, going for any exchange such as you describe won’t work, however launch forward simultainiously “grabbing/pressing” the opponent’s lead arm(wrist area)/sleeve and reverse punch can work...JKA fighting/sparring is very much about to outtime the opponent, very different from kuykushin that’s more about outpowering the opponent.......many years ago a friend spend a year in the US, while there he continued his karate practice, he mentioned karate tournament was a little weird, the back was forbidden taget, so competitor faced each other trying to turn so exposing as much of their backs at eachother 8-)
Last edited by Trick on Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:42 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?

... Why do you think Ding didn't
"throw a punch, if his opponent blocks it, he can use his punching arm to pull his blocking arm, and then punch with another hand?"

I don't have any clip right now.

You didn't answer the rest of the question. These videos give an answer.

Original Jeet Kune Do - IFO Frankfurt
Feb 7, 2020

"The Problem With Trapping & Why Late Bruce Lee Dismissed It:"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV4WvhzNfgA

In late Original Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee, there was no trapping used anymore. This may shock some people, but according to Ted Wong and Jesse Glover, late Bruce Lee dismissed trapping all together because it didn't work under pressure. Also he stated to Taki Kimura 1969 that Chi Sao was out. Even in the fighting method books, with all the pictures form 1966-67, there was practically zero trapping, if something than very few single pac saos. Everything was based on attacking an opening or using feints, instead of trapping.

Trapping works only if the opponents would freeze their hands up and completely stop their attacking intention, instead of snapping or punching through and continuing attacking. Trapping fails completely if the attack is unpredicted and comes from all angles and with full force. Therefore it's a very unrealistic concept. But people love it, because it looks flashy. As a initial attack it can work if its simplified, but in that case anything can work, even a punch from a completely untrained person. However, trapping always means compromising own punching structure.

Original Jeet Kune Do - IFO Frankfurt
Sep 18, 2020

"JKD Fencing With Hands And Feet, NO Trapping and Wing Chun:"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VykiSoR6leE
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:27 pm

marvin8 wrote:Trapping works only if the opponents would freeze their hands up and completely stop their attacking intention,

I have always believed that:

1. use a kick to enter the kicking range,
2. use a punch to enter the punching range.
3. If you can obtain a clinch (arm contact), you start from there.
4. If you don't obtain a clinch, you just keep your punches.

IMO, the WC sticky hand (also Taiji PH) only train step 3 and skip step 1, 2, and 4. I do believe that the WC sticky hand should evolve into all 4 steps process.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:21 pm

For Sanda, what do you think to use foot sweep as your initial attack? You can sweep your opponent's leading leg from outside in, or from inside out. So the chance will always be there.

What's your opinion on this?
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:37 pm

johnwang wrote:For Sanda, what do you think to use foot sweep as your initial attack? You can sweep your opponent's leading leg from outside in, or from inside out. So the chance will always be there.

What's your opinion on this?

Foot sweeps by Lyoto Machida, "Get opponent to weight their back foot."

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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Trick on Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:30 pm

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:For Sanda, what do you think to use foot sweep as your initial attack? You can sweep your opponent's leading leg from outside in, or from inside out. So the chance will always be there.

What's your opinion on this?

Foot sweeps by Lyoto Machida, "Get opponent to weight their back foot."

Image

As I have been speaking of Shotokan karate lately, ...I’ll continue

The concept “one strike one kill” is an important “mindset” in Shotokan karate, which aim to eventually develop well timed non telegraphic striking ....on ones road to that mastery one may often find oneself being countered by the opponent....well timed foot sweep is an effective technique to unbalance an forward charging attacker....that’s why also foot sweeps are heavily practiced within the Shotokan karate style.
Lyoto Machida applies traditional Japanese karate techniques very nicely, he’s an Shotokan practitioner https://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XNDYzOD ... 2Bshotokan
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby .Q. on Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:18 pm

marvin8 wrote:"The Problem With Trapping & Why Late Bruce Lee Dismissed It:"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV4WvhzNfgA

In late Original Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee, there was no trapping used anymore. This may shock some people, but according to Ted Wong and Jesse Glover, late Bruce Lee dismissed trapping all together because it didn't work under pressure. Also he stated to Taki Kimura 1969 that Chi Sao was out. Even in the fighting method books, with all the pictures form 1966-67, there was practically zero trapping, if something than very few single pac saos. Everything was based on attacking an opening or using feints, instead of trapping.

Trapping works only if the opponents would freeze their hands up and completely stop their attacking intention, instead of snapping or punching through and continuing attacking. Trapping fails completely if the attack is unpredicted and comes from all angles and with full force. Therefore it's a very unrealistic concept. But people love it, because it looks flashy. As a initial attack it can work if its simplified, but in that case anything can work, even a punch from a completely untrained person. However, trapping always means compromising own punching structure.


Now the problem w/ trapping as demonstrated in traditional applications is definitely a thing. Bruce chose to toss trapping, which is one solution. However, that's not the only answer. Adam Chan chooses to sort of enhance trapping by applying disruption on contact.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby dspyrido on Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:14 pm

marvin8 wrote:In late Original Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee, there was no trapping used anymore. This may shock some people, but according to Ted Wong and Jesse Glover, late Bruce Lee dismissed trapping all together because it didn't work under pressure. Also he stated to Taki Kimura 1969 that Chi Sao was out. Even in the fighting method books, with all the pictures form 1966-67, there was practically zero trapping, if something than very few single pac saos.


Nope. In his books he speaks highly of Chi-Sao & fits in several trapping moves (not just "pac saos"). It is more "shocking" that people are trying to rewrite what he wrote.

And who could forget the fun he had with it in enter the dragon.



.Q. wrote:Now the problem w/ trapping as demonstrated in traditional applications is definitely a thing. Bruce chose to toss trapping, which is one solution. However, that's not the only answer. Adam Chan chooses to sort of enhance trapping by applying disruption on contact.


He didn't. Look at the man's books & what he wrote directly.

marvin8 wrote:Trapping works only if the opponents would freeze their hands up and completely stop their attacking intention, instead of snapping or punching through and continuing attacking. Trapping fails completely if the attack is unpredicted and comes from all angles and with full force. Therefore it's a very unrealistic concept. But people love it, because it looks flashy. As a initial attack it can work if its simplified, but in that case anything can work, even a punch from a completely untrained person. However, trapping always means compromising own punching structure.


Rubbish. From WC lessons 30 years ago:
- You don't need to trap if you can hit the target
- If you can punch through the arms then do it
- When chain punches impact - you don't need to apply any trapping to control the arms - just continue punching
- It is a big mistake to "chase the arms"

I don't know where this guy is basing his knowledge on but it is not what I learnt many decades ago & neither what Richard Bustillo said in his seminars about trapping.

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Trapping works only if the opponents would freeze their hands up and completely stop their attacking intention,

I have always believed that:

1. use a kick to enter the kicking range,
2. use a punch to enter the punching range.
3. If you can obtain a clinch (arm contact), you start from there.
4. If you don't obtain a clinch, you just keep your punches.

IMO, the WC sticky hand (also Taiji PH) only train step 3 and skip step 1, 2, and 4. I do believe that the WC sticky hand should evolve into all 4 steps process.


That is exactly what WC teaches. WC people who don't kick to get into range never learnt the entire basis of the 2nd form - chum kiu.



The whole form is called "bridging the gap" because it introduces kicking at kicking range and stepping in to punch at punching range.

If range is not met then only inexperienced fighters would just start punching away outside of punching range.

Here's some examples of WC kicks:



Outside of range is counter kicking:



And in closing into range there are a bunch of different foot sweeps:



Front, back, side - it's all there. It contains a lot of sweeps but not a lot of throws.

Also WC does some interesting combinations of hand and foot when in close range. There is a devastating attack of neck grab, rear leg sweep with a downward elbow.

I say all this not because I have a great love for WC but because I don't like misrepresentation.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:58 pm

.Q. wrote:
marvin8 wrote:"The Problem With Trapping & Why Late Bruce Lee Dismissed It:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV4WvhzNfgA

In late Original Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee, there was no trapping used anymore. This may shock some people, but according to Ted Wong and Jesse Glover, late Bruce Lee dismissed trapping all together because it didn't work under pressure. Also he stated to Taki Kimura 1969 that Chi Sao was out. Even in the fighting method books, with all the pictures form 1966-67, there was practically zero trapping, if something than very few single pac saos. Everything was based on attacking an opening or using feints, instead of trapping.

Trapping works only if the opponents would freeze their hands up and completely stop their attacking intention, instead of snapping or punching through and continuing attacking. Trapping fails completely if the attack is unpredicted and comes from all angles and with full force. Therefore it's a very unrealistic concept. But people love it, because it looks flashy. As a initial attack it can work if its simplified, but in that case anything can work, even a punch from a completely untrained person. However, trapping always means compromising own punching structure.


Now the problem w/ trapping as demonstrated in traditional applications is definitely a thing. Bruce chose to toss trapping, which is one solution. However, that's not the only answer. Adam Chan chooses to sort of enhance trapping by applying disruption on contact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtAxnaeuCbI

In that video, Adam gives his opinion on JKD's "jao sao" specifically.

At 1:35, Adam's alternative "answer" is to grab the lead arm with two hands and pull. However, that doesn't solve the problem of opponents disengaging and throwing multiple angled punches. I stopped watching Adam's channel when I felt he switched to showing videos from mostly chi sao range which brought him more views, likes, etc.

This 9 year-old video shows Adam starting outside of punching range (disengagement) and hitting without trapping/grabbing which mirrors the "... Dismissed It" video. Starting at 3:25 Adam says, “… but for real application that is too slow. Wing Chun doesn’t chase the hands but it chases the centerline. So, it’s quicker. If he blocks, never wait for his hand to 'trap,' never this slow."

Excerpt from "Yip Man: Real vs Movie Wing Chun /Adam Chan - WING CHUN VANCOUVER:"

Image

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:In late Original Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee, there was no trapping used anymore. This may shock some people, but according to Ted Wong and Jesse Glover, late Bruce Lee dismissed trapping all together because it didn't work under pressure. Also he stated to Taki Kimura 1969 that Chi Sao was out. Even in the fighting method books, with all the pictures form 1966-67, there was practically zero trapping, if something than very few single pac saos.


Nope. In his books he speaks highly of Chi-Sao & fits in several trapping moves (not just "pac saos"). It is more "shocking" that people are trying to rewrite what he wrote.

And who could forget the fun he had with it in enter the dragon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIToSVl ... nnel=KAABA

.Q. wrote:Now the problem w/ trapping as demonstrated in traditional applications is definitely a thing. Bruce chose to toss trapping, which is one solution. However, that's not the only answer. Adam Chan chooses to sort of enhance trapping by applying disruption on contact.


He didn't. Look at the man's books & what he wrote directly.

Yes, he did. His knowledge is based on, Taky's and Ted's statements on Bruce's later stage (the evolution) of JKD which are well documented by interviews and witnesses. Those "books," authored by others, were only compilations of Bruce's notes from earlier stages of JKD. "Enter the Dragon" is an entertainment movie where his students say Bruce did/would not fight that way in real fights.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:51 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?

I don't have any clip right now. In Karate tournament point system fight, the following technique is very common:

- You throw a jab at your opponent's head.
- When he blocks your punch.
- You grab on his blocking arm.
- You throw a back hand reverse punch on his chest at the same time.
- When you do that, you make a loud noise and look at the referee at the same time.

I have seen Karate guys trained this simple combo over and over.


I think grabbing works in Karate tournaments because of the long-sleeved gi they wear.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:16 am

IMO, WC's trapping works against average joes on the street who don't know how to grapple or throw a proper punch -- but no so suitable against trained strikers who moves in and out of range quickly while hitting, or grapplers who simple go for the clinch or takedown once in trapping range.

Here's some footage of an actual street fight that took place in downtown Taipei. Trapping skills may come in handy in situations like this (starting at around 1:00) when both sides have already established contact and started to stiff-arm each other.

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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:51 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?

I don't have any clip right now. In Karate tournament point system fight, the following technique is very common:

- You throw a jab at your opponent's head.
- When he blocks your punch.
- You grab on his blocking arm.

- You throw a back hand reverse punch on his chest at the same time.
- When you do that, you make a loud noise and look at the referee at the same time.

I have seen Karate guys trained this simple combo over and over.

As trick mentioned, here is a JKA tournament highlights. There is no "blocking or grabbing of punches."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwgcKNzyFes

C.J.W. wrote:I think grabbing works in Karate tournaments because of the long-sleeved gi they wear. ...

IMO, WC's trapping works against average joes on the street who don't know how to grapple or throw a proper punch -- but no so suitable against trained strikers who moves in and out of range quickly while hitting, or grapplers who simple go for the clinch or takedown once in trapping range.

Here's some footage of an actual street fight that took place in downtown Taipei. Trapping skills may come in handy in situations like this (starting at around 1:00) when both sides have already established contact and started to stiff-arm each other.

Yes. In this highlight video, there is a grab off a stiff-arm but no blocking nor grabbing of punches.

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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby .Q. on Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:07 pm

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:In late Original Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee, there was no trapping used anymore. This may shock some people, but according to Ted Wong and Jesse Glover, late Bruce Lee dismissed trapping all together because it didn't work under pressure. Also he stated to Taki Kimura 1969 that Chi Sao was out. Even in the fighting method books, with all the pictures form 1966-67, there was practically zero trapping, if something than very few single pac saos.


Nope. In his books he speaks highly of Chi-Sao & fits in several trapping moves (not just "pac saos"). It is more "shocking" that people are trying to rewrite what he wrote.

And who could forget the fun he had with it in enter the dragon.



.Q. wrote:Now the problem w/ trapping as demonstrated in traditional applications is definitely a thing. Bruce chose to toss trapping, which is one solution. However, that's not the only answer. Adam Chan chooses to sort of enhance trapping by applying disruption on contact.


He didn't. Look at the man's books & what he wrote directly.


I just based it off of the original comment. I haven't looked much into Bruce Lee or anything.
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