Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

[MaartenSFS]

I don't think that you understand. For various reasons, the skilled traditional fighters in China don't fight in competitions. They fight people behind closed doors, in parks, on the streets, work as body guards, etc. China is a different planet and everything is different. I was regularly challenged by people whilst training in parks. This is a common occurence throughout the country. I also knew many that were in little gangs and fought with other gangs, sometimes with weapons - even my Sanda coach. I have seen a man butchered with swords. Why can't you people understand this? They don't give a shit about competitions. Some don't want to give up their secrets. Some are too poor. Until recently most of China was hopelessly impoverished and even now many regions. still are. Some are too old. Some are afraid of the government after their brothers or masters were persecuted during the cultural revolution. Not enough skilled masters are left and not enough young people are taking up the arts to produce enough fighters. Parents also discourage their children from doing martial arts because it doesn't put food on the table. Chinese are obsessed with anything foreign these days, so there is little interest. In another generation CMA will be extinct at this rate...

[windwalker]

The styles many hold as traditional, were innovative in their time addressing certain needs or perceived weakness of the arts during that time.

Most were built around very simple movement focusing on a few core ideas
giving them a distinctive approach or flavor thought to be an advantage in facing adversaries.
A main complaint, in modern times for a long time, in CMA what is often seen in a ring setting or free fighting is not reflective of the training.

So much so that people are constantly looking for examples of what they practice presumably to have some validation for their chosen Art.

The constant reference back to the old ancestors, and certain events back in history with no modern examples.
Sanda, free hand or hit, at one time a term used to describe sparring or fighting, like its counterpart MMA has morphed into a combative art of its own.

All CMA has to address the 3 ranges of engagement, using their own specific tool sets and specializations.

The main question one should ask them selves are they a historian or a practitioner?
Many are historians, very few talking about how they use their art or why certain things are done in a certain way.

Nothing wrong with either approach except for those not understanding they are historians, looking for validation of something they practice that matches the history they preserve will nay never find it in the ring events for the aforementioned reasons that "MaartenSF" posted. It is quite strange at times the ones that can make it work don't seem to really care about proving they can do so....guess they dont have to.... they know.

While those who are practitioners, finding answers within themselves, might question why they never reach the same level of ability as those in the stories passed down are said to have possessed

[johnwang]

I was always told that if I don'r spar/wrestle for 3 days, my arm and leg will no longer be mine any more. If what I was told is true then how can those CMA masters maintain their fighting ability?

If those CMA masters don't spar/wrestle with their students, who will they spar/wrestle with?

If a CMA master uses

- hook punch to hit on his student's head, his student knows that the teacher's hook punch is good.
- single leg to take his student's down, his student knows that the teacher's single leg is good.
- ...

How can any CMA master be able to hide his fighting ability?

[marvin8]

It is quite strange at times the ones that can make it work don't seem to really care about proving they can do so....guess they dont have to.... they know.

If they haven't proven themselves, how do you know they can "make it work?"

They know what? (If the meant sarcasm, then I agree.)

[Quigga]

I wrote a long post and lost it.

In simple terms, there are people who proved themselves in other venues using IMA. These are rarely people who spend a lot of time writing posts and being exposed to the public or wasting time and effort.

When a properly trained IMAist would enter the ring with killing intent, it would be a very gruesome scene. Very quick, efficient and with lifelong damage. What I consider high level is nothing to the level that is out there. Or what the ordinary person without extensive violent exposure would presume to be. There are people who killed with these methods, past and present. What would they need to proof to anyone?

[johnwang]

Some people may think that after you have developed fighting ability, the fighting ability will be with you for the rest of your life. In my personal experience, this is 100% false statement. Have people ever experienced that your mind want to do something, but your body can't?

[windwalker]

It is quite strange at times the ones that can make it work don't seem to really care about proving they can do so....guess they dont have to.... they know.

If they haven't proven themselves, how do you know they can "make it work?"

They know what? (If the meant sarcasm, then I agree.)

I don't think that you understand. For various reasons, the skilled traditional fighters in China don't fight in competitions. They fight people behind closed doors, in parks, on the streets, work as body guards, etc. China is a different planet and everything is different

Very much agree.

For those who have not met any skilled CMA people , they just haven’t met any skilled CMA people
It’s not up to them to prove it to anyone else, it is up to those asking the questions to find out.

In my experience people are known within their own communities, For some this is enough.
China is a big place, with many people, people who are known as fighters are known as such for a reason.

[marvin8]

In simple terms, there are people who proved themselves in other venues using IMA.

Who (names) proved themselves against who? Another unknown person?

There are mobsters, gangs and people all over the world who kill each other in various venues. However, that does not prove they have superior hand-to-hand fighting skills.

China is a big place, with many people, people who are known as fighters are known as such for a reason.

Who are these known fighters? How did you determine they are superior fighters?

[Quigga]

You are right Marvin. I have presented weak arguments as to why IMA is not seen in MMA. Anecdotes are not enough. Will come back later.

[marvin8]

You are right Marvin. I have presented weak arguments as to why IMA is not seen in MMA. Anecdotes are not enough. Will come back later.

According to the OP article, IMA is seen in MMA.

The OP article and Ramsey (who differ on the definition of sanda) say modern training is superior to TCMA and TCMAist should evolve their training. Whoever disagrees, what training, attributes, etc do you feel are superior to modern training and highest ranked sport fighters?

[windwalker]

There are mobsters, gangs and people all over the world who kill each other in various venues. However, that does not prove they have superior hand-to-hand fighting skills.


Who are these known fighters? How did you determine they are superior fighters?

When you start to state your own opinion in your words, based on your experience, answers given might start to make sense

your evaluation of superior h2h is predicated on what happens in a ring.



Do we really need to show outside the ring?

maybe


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydhcjoi8DoQ

mma fighter / check
fight record / check
superior h2h / check

what happened?

[marvin8]

There are mobsters, gangs and people all over the world who kill each other in various venues. However, that does not prove they have superior hand-to-hand fighting skills.


Who are these known fighters? How did you determine they are superior fighters?

your evaluation of superior h2h is predicated on what happens in a ring.

No, it's not. Fighting skills can be displayed outside of a ring, as in Xu Xiadong vs Ding Hao.

Before asking more questions please elaborate on your statements by answering the questions:

Who are these known fighters? How did you determine they are superior fighters?

[marvin8]

At 29:20, Hoi Wah Ho (TCMAist, etc.) discusses his view on evolving and preserving TCMA which is related to the OP topic.

Host: Hoi Wah Ho
Special Guest: Adam Prato

Hoi Wah Ho dives into the common problems of Kung Fu training, why it is outdated for today's modern mixed martial arts landscape, dealing with Kung Fu "geeks" or LARPers (Live Action Role Players) in the Kung Fu community, and the fake Kung Fu masters that are ruining Kung Fu for the rest of us, serious practitioners.

Special Guest Adam Prato of Wing Chun Brotherhood joins us for this episode in an honest discussion about the state of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts, or specifically Wing Chun Kung Fu.

Adam is the leader of Wing Chun Brotherhood, a group of Wing Chun Kung Fu practitioners who wish to unite Wing Chun lineages and styles together to spar and pressure test their Kung Fu so it can evolve and improve.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpFh_VKaEQI

[windwalker]

Before asking more questions please elaborate on your statements by answering the questions:

Who are these known fighters? How did you determine they are superior fighters?

All Teachers I've met proved their art to those training with them.
Either directly or indirectly by having one of their students engage...

You might try posting based on your own experiences, answers given can be made
according to your experience level. You can start by stating why you agree or disagree
with the article you posted.

[marvin8]

Before asking more questions please elaborate on your statements by answering the questions:

Who are these known fighters? How did you determine they are superior fighters?

All Teachers I've met proved their art to those training with them. ...

I've already replied to many questions and comments. Again:

Before asking more questions please elaborate on your statements by answering the questions:

Who are these known fighters? How did you determine they are superior fighters?