Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby .Q. on Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:57 pm

marvin8 wrote:
.Q. wrote:
marvin8 wrote:"The Problem With Trapping & Why Late Bruce Lee Dismissed It:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV4WvhzNfgA

In late Original Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee, there was no trapping used anymore. This may shock some people, but according to Ted Wong and Jesse Glover, late Bruce Lee dismissed trapping all together because it didn't work under pressure. Also he stated to Taki Kimura 1969 that Chi Sao was out. Even in the fighting method books, with all the pictures form 1966-67, there was practically zero trapping, if something than very few single pac saos. Everything was based on attacking an opening or using feints, instead of trapping.

Trapping works only if the opponents would freeze their hands up and completely stop their attacking intention, instead of snapping or punching through and continuing attacking. Trapping fails completely if the attack is unpredicted and comes from all angles and with full force. Therefore it's a very unrealistic concept. But people love it, because it looks flashy. As a initial attack it can work if its simplified, but in that case anything can work, even a punch from a completely untrained person. However, trapping always means compromising own punching structure.


Now the problem w/ trapping as demonstrated in traditional applications is definitely a thing. Bruce chose to toss trapping, which is one solution. However, that's not the only answer. Adam Chan chooses to sort of enhance trapping by applying disruption on contact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtAxnaeuCbI

In that video, Adam gives his opinion on JKD's "jao sao" specifically.

At 1:35, Adam's alternative "answer" is to grab the lead arm with two hands and pull. However, that doesn't solve the problem of opponents disengaging and throwing multiple angled punches. I stopped watching Adam's channel when I felt he switched to showing videos from mostly chi sao range which brought him more views, likes, etc.

Adam Chan showed various aspects to trapping, including pressing into the center line on contact and pulling. What works depends on the situation and opponent's reaction (typical boxer reacts differently from typical judoka). There's no one technique that works in all situations and that's why there are different ones. When you talk about opponents disengaging and throwing multiple angled punches, yes, that's a common thing. However, you can use ringcraft to cut them off and force them to engage. That's what smart in-fighting boxers have to use against out-fighters. There are some really good professional boxers that use trapping. It's too much work to find the specific clip but the youtube channel Modern Martial Artist analyzed a few clips where famous boxers used techniques that are basically just trapping while wearing boxing gloves. I remember seeing one guy who basically used Xingyi Tiger to bridge and hit as his bread and butter.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby everything on Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:01 pm

I think in previous threads we talked about some proactive guard removal (which may or may not involve some trapping). I posted some clips of Fedor doing these. Not the same as the wingchun trapping, though. Can see why BL would've dispensed with it after his further study/experience.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:02 pm

.Q. wrote:
marvin8 wrote:"The Problem With Trapping & Why Late Bruce Lee Dismissed It:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV4WvhzNfgA

In late Original Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee, there was no trapping used anymore. This may shock some people, but according to Ted Wong and Jesse Glover, late Bruce Lee dismissed trapping all together because it didn't work under pressure. Also he stated to Taki Kimura 1969 that Chi Sao was out. Even in the fighting method books, with all the pictures form 1966-67, there was practically zero trapping, if something than very few single pac saos. Everything was based on attacking an opening or using feints, instead of trapping.

Trapping works only if the opponents would freeze their hands up and completely stop their attacking intention, instead of snapping or punching through and continuing attacking. Trapping fails completely if the attack is unpredicted and comes from all angles and with full force. Therefore it's a very unrealistic concept. But people love it, because it looks flashy. As a initial attack it can work if its simplified, but in that case anything can work, even a punch from a completely untrained person. However, trapping always means compromising own punching structure.

When you talk about opponents disengaging and throwing multiple angled punches, yes, that's a common thing. However, you can use ringcraft to cut them off and force them to engage.

Not me, the guy that explains it in the video and description above. Not someone who dances away, but someone who doesn't play chi sau with you.

Here Adam says trapping is "too slow." Instead of trapping, he hits (like the guy above):

marvin8 wrote:This 9 year-old video shows Adam starting outside of punching range (disengagement) and hitting without trapping/grabbing which mirrors the "... Dismissed It" video. Starting at 3:25 Adam says, “… but for real application that is too slow. Wing Chun doesn’t chase the hands but it chases the centerline. So, it’s quicker. If he blocks, never wait for his hand to 'trap,' never this slow."

Excerpt from "Yip Man: Real vs Movie Wing Chun /Adam Chan - WING CHUN VANCOUVER:"

Image


Maybe you can answer my earlier question, as no one else has.

marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?

... Why do you think Ding didn't
"throw a punch, if his opponent blocks it, he can use his punching arm to pull his blocking arm, and then punch with another hand?"


Maybe you can point out where trapping would work in the karate videos I posted:

marvin8 wrote:As trick mentioned, here is a JKA tournament highlights. There is no "blocking or grabbing of punches."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwgcKNzyFes

Yes. In this highlight video, there is a grab off a stiff-arm but no blocking nor grabbing of punches.

Image


.Q. wrote:There are some really good professional boxers that use trapping. It's too much work to find the specific clip but the youtube channel Modern Martial Artist analyzed a few clips where famous boxers used techniques that are basically just trapping while wearing boxing gloves. I remember seeing one guy who basically used Xingyi Tiger to bridge and hit as his bread and butter.

I posted some here:

marvin8 wrote:
everything wrote:I think that one isn't working now. He does it toward the end (not the initial slap down).

Image

I don't know if others do that so much.

Here are others:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Gum Sau — Golovkin:
Image

Lap Sau — Lomachenko:
Image
Image
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby dspyrido on Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:59 pm

marvin8 wrote:Yes, he did. His knowledge is based on, Taky's and Ted's statements on Bruce's later stage (the evolution) of JKD which are well documented by interviews and witnesses. Those "books," authored by others, were only compilations of Bruce's notes from earlier stages of JKD. "Enter the Dragon" is an entertainment movie where his students say Bruce did/would not fight that way in real fights.


Your knowledge is based on his knowledge which is based on their knowledge. Nice one on the hearsay and conjecture. -zzz-

Let's just leave the photos to tell it all.

Page 2 Bruce Lees fighting methods - self defense techniques

Image

The text says it all in the following:

Image

What's he doing here? Someone explain how in 1972 when Bruce was filming enter the dragon he would have dismissed sticking hands.

Image

Simply put Bruce Lee did not dismiss sticking hands but made sure there was emphasis on other training methods - BTW some of which exist in WC. Bruce Lee did these moves better by mixing in boxing, kickboxing, fencing concepts & CMA long range kicking.

I know over the years some people enjoyed writing off Bruce Lee because he was an actor but I would guarantee that if he hadn't past away we would have seen MMA fights in the west at least 1-2 decades earlier.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby dspyrido on Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:11 pm

everything wrote:I think in previous threads we talked about some proactive guard removal (which may or may not involve some trapping). I posted some clips of Fedor doing these. Not the same as the wingchun trapping, though. Can see why BL would've dispensed with it after his further study/experience.


Trapping is a general term for temporary control of two arms but that can be done by simply compressing the front arm into the back using a palm strike. Trapping even extends out to include head control and leg control.

What is seen in pat down, smash down, cross arm, finger pulling are all a part of the trapping family. WC only tends to say - don't grab but even that has exceptions in the system where grabbing exists (it's found in the 3rd form). Just most people don't learn it under the system.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:41 pm

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Yes, he did. His knowledge is based on, Taky's and Ted's statements on Bruce's later stage (the evolution) of JKD which are well documented by interviews and witnesses. Those "books," authored by others, were only compilations of Bruce's notes from earlier stages of JKD. "Enter the Dragon" is an entertainment movie where his students say Bruce did/would not fight that way in real fights.


... Let's just leave the photos to tell it all.

Page 2 Bruce Lees fighting methods - self defense techniques

https://i.ibb.co/F3Yp588/bruce1.jpg

The text says it all in the following:

https://i.ibb.co/swPMqY6/bruce2.jpg

Written in 1966, Bruce continued to evolve JKD per his closest students/friends.

dspyrido wrote:What's he doing here? Someone explain how in 1972 when Bruce was filming enter the dragon he would have dismissed sticking hands.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f5/65/8d ... 592c6a.jpg

Filming an entertainment movie, "Enter the Dragon." It has already been explained by his closest students/friends that:
marvin8 wrote:"Enter the Dragon" is an entertainment movie where his students say Bruce did/would not fight that way in real fights.

dspyrido wrote:Simply put Bruce Lee did not dismiss sticking hands but made sure there was emphasis on other training methods - BTW some of which exist in WC. Bruce Lee did these moves better by mixing in boxing, kickboxing, fencing concepts & CMA long range kicking.

Excerpt from "Ted Wong Interview:"

TED WONG: Yeah, in his private teaching there was still a little bit of Wing Chun there but it was no longer the center of his art. I think once he started to move away from it was when he really started to excel; that was how he progressed so quickly on his own. I think that he believed that the Wing Chun techniques no longer fit into the direction he was progressing in at that time; that is, into the structure of JKD anymore. However, Wing Chun remains an important part of the early history of Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do (TM). I should also emphasize that this is only my personal opinion of how he felt.


Don't worry about what Bruce Lee did 50 years ago, as he would continue to evolve. Can you answer my earlier question, as no one else has.

marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?

... Why do you think Ding didn't
"throw a punch, if his opponent blocks it, he can use his punching arm to pull his blocking arm, and then punch with another hand?"
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby .Q. on Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:06 pm

marvin8 wrote:
.Q. wrote:
marvin8 wrote:"The Problem With Trapping & Why Late Bruce Lee Dismissed It:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV4WvhzNfgA

In late Original Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee, there was no trapping used anymore. This may shock some people, but according to Ted Wong and Jesse Glover, late Bruce Lee dismissed trapping all together because it didn't work under pressure. Also he stated to Taki Kimura 1969 that Chi Sao was out. Even in the fighting method books, with all the pictures form 1966-67, there was practically zero trapping, if something than very few single pac saos. Everything was based on attacking an opening or using feints, instead of trapping.

Trapping works only if the opponents would freeze their hands up and completely stop their attacking intention, instead of snapping or punching through and continuing attacking. Trapping fails completely if the attack is unpredicted and comes from all angles and with full force. Therefore it's a very unrealistic concept. But people love it, because it looks flashy. As a initial attack it can work if its simplified, but in that case anything can work, even a punch from a completely untrained person. However, trapping always means compromising own punching structure.

When you talk about opponents disengaging and throwing multiple angled punches, yes, that's a common thing. However, you can use ringcraft to cut them off and force them to engage.

Not me, the guy that explains it in the video and description above. Not someone who dances away, but someone who doesn't play chi sau with you.

Well, regardless whether that was from you or the guy in the video, the answer is still to use ringcraft to cut off out-fighters.

marvin8 wrote:Here Adam says trapping is "too slow." Instead of trapping, he hits (like the guy above):

This 9 year-old video shows Adam starting outside of punching range (disengagement) and hitting without trapping/grabbing which mirrors the "... Dismissed It" video. Starting at 3:25 Adam says, “… but for real application that is too slow. Wing Chun doesn’t chase the hands but it chases the centerline. So, it’s quicker. If he blocks, never wait for his hand to 'trap,' never this slow."

Excerpt from "Yip Man: Real vs Movie Wing Chun /Adam Chan - WING CHUN VANCOUVER:"

Image


I'm wondering if my idea of trapping is different than yours (maybe to most people in general)? I don't feel a trap only counts as successful when it has sprung and locked down a limb. Its presence keeping you safe from an incoming punch also counts. ie., in that example even though he didn't grab the arm, his own arms kept his head safe while he went in to strike. There's a specific reason his arms moved in that sequence and in those directions.

marvin8 wrote:Maybe you can answer my earlier question, as no one else has.

Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? [color=#FF0000]If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?

.Q. wrote:There are some really good professional boxers that use trapping. It's too much work to find the specific clip but the youtube channel Modern Martial Artist analyzed a few clips where famous boxers used techniques that are basically just trapping while wearing boxing gloves. I remember seeing one guy who basically used Xingyi Tiger to bridge and hit as his bread and butter.

I posted some here:

Gum Sau — Golovkin:
Image

I don't quite understand why you need to see trapping done by a WC guy vs karateka vs a boxer? I thought we were just discussing whether trapping is a valid strategy? If you're saying WC training doesn't teach them to properly trap, I don't know much about WC so I'll leave that to someone else. Also, I have seen Lyoto Machida, a karate guy use trapping, quite successfully. The "handshake" (that's my name for it) specifically starts out w/ a grab. You can look it up. I'm not an expert on video searches.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:16 am

.Q. wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
.Q. wrote:When you talk about opponents disengaging and throwing multiple angled punches, yes, that's a common thing. However, you can use ringcraft to cut them off and force them to engage.

Not me, the guy that explains it in the video and description above. Not someone who dances away, but someone who doesn't play chi sau with you.

Well, regardless whether that was from you or the guy in the video, the answer is still to use ringcraft to cut off out-fighters.

I believe you're not understanding the video from the answer you're giving.

.Q. wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Here Adam says trapping is "too slow." Instead of trapping, he hits (like the guy above):

This 9 year-old video shows Adam starting outside of punching range (disengagement) and hitting without trapping/grabbing which mirrors the "... Dismissed It" video. Starting at 3:25 Adam says, “… but for real application that is too slow. Wing Chun doesn’t chase the hands but it chases the centerline. So, it’s quicker. If he blocks, never wait for his hand to 'trap,' never this slow."

Excerpt from "Yip Man: Real vs Movie Wing Chun /Adam Chan - WING CHUN VANCOUVER:"

https://imgur.com/cPacvHB.gif


I'm wondering if my idea of trapping is different than yours (maybe to most people in general)? I don't feel a trap only counts as successful when it has sprung and locked down a limb. Its presence keeping you safe from an incoming punch also counts. ie., in that example even though he didn't grab the arm, his own arms kept his head safe while he went in to strike. There's a specific reason his arms moved in that sequence and in those directions.

Yes, your definition is wrong. Trapping is when you make contact with the opponent's arm. johnwang gave an example of trapping and posted a gif of Bruce Lee performing it which I responded to with a contradicting video, "The Problem With Trapping & Why Late Bruce Lee Dismissed It."

Adam is not trapping, since he does not make contact with the opponent's arm. This is the "correct" and late stage JKD way, since Bruce "dismissed" trapping according to the video. Per the video, if Adam used his left arm to contact the opponent's left arm and pulled it, the opponent can use his right hand to punch Adam in the face. Per Adam, it is faster and safer not to trap/grab which is in agreement with the "Bruce Lee Dismissed It" video. (I just summarized a lot of my posts, if you reread them you might understand.)

.Q. wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Maybe you can answer my earlier question, as no one else has.

Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?

.Q. wrote:There are some really good professional boxers that use trapping. It's too much work to find the specific clip but the youtube channel Modern Martial Artist analyzed a few clips where famous boxers used techniques that are basically just trapping while wearing boxing gloves. I remember seeing one guy who basically used Xingyi Tiger to bridge and hit as his bread and butter.

I posted some here:

Gum Sau — Golovkin:
https://media.giphy.com/media/9V7qQ567b ... /giphy.gif

I don't quite understand why you need to see trapping done by a WC guy vs karateka vs a boxer? I thought we were just discussing whether trapping is a valid strategy? If you're saying WC training doesn't teach them to properly trap, I don't know much about WC so I'll leave that to someone else. Also, I have seen Lyoto Machida, a karate guy use trapping, quite successfully. The "handshake" (that's my name for it) specifically starts out w/ a grab. You can look it up. I'm not an expert on video searches.

WC spends a lot of time on chi sao drills. Yet, no one has posted a CMA guy trapping in competition, even though I asked. I have only seen MMA and boxing trapping in competition. (The MMA and boxing traps may be considered simple compared to the sequence johnwang posted.) This speaks to the OP topic—one being, "Martial arts (should) evolve and adapt, and CMA is no exception." The OP article and related videos say CMA should spar. However IMO, they should be more specific and include the differences in drills.

"Wing Chun Trapping in Self Defense:"

Stephan Kesting on Feb 22, 2019 wrote:This is bound to be controversial, but I don’t think that trapping works in real self defense situations.

At least not the way it’s normally taught and trained.


Here’s my video on the topic, along with a few examples of where some of these techniques might actually be useful…


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxl5ukLDICM

What is Trapping Hands?

Trapping hands is an aspect of some kung fu systems in which you use your arms to tie up and control your opponent’s arms in order to control him and land your own strikes. It’s found in many different styles but is best known from wing chun kung fu and jun fan kung fu.

Typical techniques in trapping include the pak sao (slapping hand), lop sao (pulling hand), biu sao (darting hand), huen sao (circling hand) and many others.

The cool part is when you and a training partner start linking these moves together into extended sequences and drills. Hands and fists are flying all over the place and you feel like some sort of unstoppable kung fu killer robot.

I’ve trained trapping hands with at least 4 different instructors and it’s really fun.

But…

There’s Trouble with Trapping

The trouble with these extended trapping sequences is that they almost NEVER work under real pressure. They don’t work reliably in full contact sparring, you don’t see them in MMA or in streetfights.

Now it’s true, you may see isolated cases of fighters using one single trapping technique to set up a strike or combination occasionally in a match. Here are some examples of a trap to hit inside the octagon…

Image
Valentina Shevchenko vs Priscila Cachoeira

Image
Lyoto Machida vs Sam Hoger

Image
Daniel Cormier vs Alexander Gustafsson

I’ve also seen fighters in Thai Boxing and Lethwei use similar trapping techniques to set up knees and elbows.

But notice how these are all single trapping movements, and almost always a pak sao (the slapping hand, or a pawing motion to get the other guy’s arm out of the way).

But what you NEVER see is an extended sequence that goes pak sao to lop sao to pak sao to huen sao to jeet chung choi (i.e. anything resembling a classical trapping sequence).

Why is that?

Why Don’t Extended Trapping Sequences Work?

First of all, trapping is really hard to pull off against someone using boxing punches thrown from a boxer’s stance with typical boxing hand positions.

Secondly, and even more fundamentally, those extended trapping sequences rely on the two combatants staying at a range with about 1 to 2 feet of separation. But when people are fighting for real that range is a usually a temporary phenomenon.

After the first trap the two fighters almost always either 1) clinch, or 2) separate.

This rant may seem a bit pedantic, a TON of people spend a TON of time training these unrealistic extended sequences that will never work in real life.

Fundamentally, under pressure you’re revert to your training. And if your training is unrealistic then you’ll be sadly disappointed in your skills.

When Does Trapping Work?

I think people would be better off and their skills much more applicable if they worked their boxing and clinching skills, and didn’t spend as much time in a make-believe world where people stay in trapping range and move their arms like kung fu robots.

Once you can throw a powerful jab, defend a right cross, and feel competent at the basic ranges of fighting, then you can maybe add the occasional pak sao or lop sao to your sparring.


That pak sao is the secret spice though, it’s not a main ingredient to build your recipe around.

Another time that trapping can work is on the ground, especially in ground and pound situations.

The range during ground and pound is essentially the same range at which most classical kung fu trapping occurs (1 to 2 feet) and so it’s much harder for your opponent to back up out of trapping range.

You still don’t see long classical trapping combinations though, but the odds of linking together one or two traps becomes higher. But if this barrage continues for any length of time you’re essentially right back into something that looks an awful lot like gripfighting from the clinch, just with one person flat on his back.

I show a couple of examples of possible ground and pound combinations in the second half of the video at the top of this page, so go check it out if you want a deeper explanation of ground and pound trapping.

What About Trapping as a Training Method?

Sometimes the argument for training extended trapping goes something like this…

“Yes, we know that it’s unlikely that you’ll be able to link more than one or two traps in a real fight, but by training these long sequences over and over we get more reps in, develop muscle memory, and make these moves instinctive.”

I actually think there is some truth to this argument.

Repetition does make perfect, and if you want to link your reps together into a sequence or a drill that’s great.

Just don’t mistake the finger pointing at the moon for the moon itself; be honest with yourself and remember what you’re doing is a drill and not a fighting technique in itself.

Even 10,000 reps of your fancy trapping sequence later it’s almost impossible that this sequence will ever manifest itself in sparring, in a match, or in a real fight. Remind yourself of this fact by doing some kickboxing sparring once in a while and see how much of your trapping you can pull off before it immediately proceeds into the clinch.

Trapping is a garnish that occasionally gets added to the meal, not the meal itself.

That’s my rant for the day.

Good luck with your training,

Stephan
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby dspyrido on Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:00 am

marvin8 wrote:Yes, your definition is wrong. Trapping is when you make contact with the opponent's arm.


No your definition is wrong. Trapping is where an opponents limb is temporarily imbolised so that it creates an opening for an attack which can include trapping the arms, legs or the neck. It can be also delivered by angling and blocking the shoulder or knee from turning which is straight out mook jung. In fact there's even more than that but you can go study WC to know what it is or isn't.

Every gif that you have posted in mma which involves trapping the arm and throwing a punch is exactly what is taught in WC. They even overlap with methods taught in boxing, MT etc.

As for this ...

marvin8 wrote:Excerpt from "Ted Wong Interview:"

TED WONG: Yeah, in his private teaching there was still a little bit of Wing Chun there but it was no longer the center of his art. I think once he started to move away from it was when he really started to excel; that was how he progressed so quickly on his own. I think that he believed that the Wing Chun techniques no longer fit into the direction he was progressing in at that time; that is, into the structure of JKD anymore. However, Wing Chun remains an important part of the early history of Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do (TM). I should also emphasize that this is only my personal opinion of how he felt.


Does not say anything about bruce lee deviating from trapping. All it says - he's not making WC the center art & is thinking & teaching around it. It would have been a pleasure to see where he would have taken it.

Anyway my picture of him in 1972 show he's still endorsing it a year before he passed away. But sure let's move on since you are wrong about this line of thinking and should let it go.

As for this ...

marvin8 wrote:
Stephan Kesting on Feb 22, 2019 wrote:This is bound to be controversial, but I don’t think that trapping works in real self defense situations.

At least not the way it’s normally taught and trained.



:P

Ffs Stephen Kesting talking about Wing Chun??? A guy who is outright selling BJJ on every corner & makes all his livelihood from it. If I want his opinion on BJJ then great but referring to him on a view on WC is a little bit too biased for me.

And as for...

marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? ]If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?


Why? Maybe because joe said so?



Or was he blind sided talking about a topic he did not get. At least he can learn.





Or WC in MMA with a modified approach. There's a few more of those floating around. I am sure you can find them.



Anyway back to the topic. Sanda is alive and well in China.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:46 am

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Yes, your definition is wrong. Trapping is when you make contact with the opponent's arm.


No your definition is wrong.

You left out the rest of the paragraph. In reply to .Q., if there's no contact, then there's no "trapping." Then, I provided links to gif and video examples and posted an article on trapping which included a definition:

marvin8 wrote:Trapping is when you make contact with the opponent's arm. johnwang gave an example of trapping and posted a gif of Bruce Lee performing it which I responded to with a contradicting video, "The Problem With Trapping & Why Late Bruce Lee Dismissed It."

dspyrido wrote:Every gif that you have posted in mma which involves trapping the arm and throwing a punch is exactly what is taught in WC. They even overlap with methods taught in boxing, MT etc.

There are differences between MMA/boxing and WC training. Video clips of MMA/boxing trapping in competition were posted, but none of WC or CMA.

dspyrido wrote:As for this ...

marvin8 wrote:Excerpt from "Ted Wong Interview:"

TED WONG: Yeah, in his private teaching there was still a little bit of Wing Chun there but it was no longer the center of his art. I think once he started to move away from it was when he really started to excel; that was how he progressed so quickly on his own. I think that he believed that the Wing Chun techniques no longer fit into the direction he was progressing in at that time; that is, into the structure of JKD anymore. However, Wing Chun remains an important part of the early history of Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do (TM). I should also emphasize that this is only my personal opinion of how he felt.


Does not say anything about bruce lee deviating from trapping. All it says - he's not making WC the center art & is thinking & teaching around it. It would have been a pleasure to see where he would have taken it.

It's one of many quotes. Bruce did "deviate from trapping" and evolved as "seen"/witnessed by students/friends.

dspyrido wrote:Anyway my picture of him in 1972 show he's still endorsing it a year before he passed away.

He included "it" for entertainment purposes. It would be boring for most to watch a fight that lasted seconds without blocking, trapping, high kicks, etc.

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? ]If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?


Why?

Because:
marvin8 wrote:This speaks to the OP topic—one being, "Martial arts (should) evolve and adapt, and CMA is no exception." The OP article and related videos say CMA should spar. However IMO, they should be more specific and include the differences in drills.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:48 pm

Sanda develops different set of techniques than MMA does.

I'm still allergic to "push".
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby .Q. on Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:51 pm

johnwang wrote:Sanda develops different set of techniques than MMA does.


I feel rules that allow you to sacrifice but not allow people to ground pound is unfair. You get to keep doing those dives w/o being punished.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby rojcewiczj on Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:30 pm

If you are going to use muscle force then you better off not do anything from Chinese martial arts, or Japanese for that matter. Chinese and Japanese warriors fought for hundreds and hundreds of years without ever learning western boxing. Trapping as too often represented in wing chun demos is only based on the appearance of Chinese martial arts, its a muscle force way to imitate the weight force methods of genuine historical Chinese martial art. Chinese martial arts is historically more like a wrestling system, close to Sumo but more formally taught (literally using forms) thats why the best Chinese martial artist, including Sanda, really shine at takedowns. Your opponent will feel trapped when you crash into them with your entire body weight in a way that accesses their center of balance, otherwise its pointless to try to restrict someone's arms. A Chinese martial arts punch is more like the straight arm that a rugby player might use to knock people away, than a western boxing punch. Ironically, the western boxing of the pre-twentieth century is similarly more like a wrestling system that uses the arm as a lance to drive the opponents head back, or disrupt the body. Chinese martial artists need to live more into the historical form of their art and understand themselves better. Bruce Lee did not understand the historical form of Chinese or western martial arts, he understood the sports that surrounded him and experienced the failure of those shred of Chinese martial arts he learned to succeed within the contemporary sporting context.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:05 pm

A Chinese martial arts punch is more like the straight arm that a rugby player might use to knock people away, than a western boxing punch.


hop gar sanda practice. demos, some of the points mentioned in the preceding post.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nhfl09iukLE
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby rojcewiczj on Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:01 pm

Looking at the previous sparring video, I think we really need to ask ourselves why? why do we put ourselves through this sort of physical abuse of battering each other for minutes at a time? Personally, I never want to go back to this sort of training. One may think that if you take off the gloves than the fight would be ended quickly with these sorts of techniques, but the sad truth is that people can take tremendous amounts of this sort of hitting force and, minus a knock out blow, can continue to resist. A clear signal of a technique using muscular force is that the strike is visibly interrupted by the resistance of the opponent. In the historical techniques the motion of the arm or limb will reach its conclusion and the body will crash to create the impact.



Knock them off balance, take them down, move away or strike them from standing.
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