Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:38 am

IMO, Sanda can be 100% CMA.

In the following clip, the face punch, pull, face punch, chest punch combo you just do see it used in boxing, kickboxing, or MMA.

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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:57 am



The above clip illustrates the issue I've brought up. The way this two person form is done, neither person has any effect on the other. I don't think that if we simply turn up the speed or aggression or the intent to hit, that these methods will become effective. In fact, I think thats exactly what gets TCMA people destroyed by competitive fighters. Those TCMA people think that if they simply try to hit their opponent they will be effective which is just not the case. Wing Chun people seem to have often made this mistake, where they think chain punching and front kicking will knock people out. It just doesn't work like that. The deeper mystery of CMA is how the use of weight can be trained to create unbalancing in an extremely effective way, rendering your opponent vulnerable. I think those TCMA that degraded into pure striking, are just that, degraded. Striking can work, that is what contemporary boxing, kickboxing, muay thai are for, they are for making striking work on its own terms. Looking at TCMA I find it basically impossible to make the argument, especially to those uninterested in TCMA, that all these methods will help them strike someone from kickboxing/boxing range, if that was the case people would have already caught on to that. There is a simple issue with passing down TCMA skills, in that it sometimes takes years for people to gain real unbalancing/take-down skill, if ever.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby windwalker on Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:26 am

The above clip illustrates the issue I've brought up. The way this two person form is done, neither person has any effect on the other.


Aside from the fact that it’s a prearranged sequence of movement designed to help one understand a method of distancing and timing. It’s a practice method what would one expect to see?

Posted as an illustration of how those who practice it move.
So stated in the post.

One can agree or not with the premise and practice of the methods demonstrated.
A little different from “knowing “ based on experience

Always thought the ability to knockout some one, was a quick way of unbalancing them.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:44 pm

To train Sanda, you have to start with some CMA basic principles.

For example, you punch on the

1. right side of your opponent's right arm. Your opponent will use right inside out to block your punch. You can change your right jab into a pull. You then punch out your left hand.
2. left side of your opponent's right arm. Your opponent will use right outside in to block your punch. You can use your left hand to pull. You can throw another right punch again.

Sine you always control one of your opponent's arms, you can concentrate on dealing with his single free arm only. IMO, without using to control one of your opponent's arms principle, a CMA person will fight like a kickboxer.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:02 pm

I think its totally valid to practice two person form where neither partner is effected; however, when it comes to application, its important to understand how to control your opponent in order to apply the striking methods and/or takedowns. I agree with what John Wang is pointing to, in that controlling at least one of the opponents arms is necessary to break out of kickboxing.

Of course if you could just throw a punch and knock someone out then that would be a very direct way of controlling an opponent. Many CMA people try to knock their opponent out and find that their opponent is a moving target which can block/shield themselves from strikes, and that kickboxing methods are more effective than historical methods for knockout hunting at a distance. It is the same issue with weapons. You can try to simply hit someone, but they tend to block/hit back, and then you try the same thing and they do the same thing, and this goes on till someone gets hit or usually both people get hit. Now, knowing that the other person will probably block, I think its very sensible to move in and apply connection/pressure/control in order to unbalance your opponent so that they cant block and counter attack. The issue again, is that without proper training in this method, people don't have a clear plan/intent for working the control. I appreciate the clip that John Wang has shared, in that it shows people intentionally training to implement a control method. A point I will continue to make is that control comes mainly through the effective application of weight to overload and unbalance, not through elaborate hand methods.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby windwalker on Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:12 pm

johnwang wrote:
Sine you always control one of your opponent's arms, you can concentrate on dealing with his single free arm only. IMO, without using to control one of your opponent's arms principle, a CMA person will fight like a kickboxer.


An assumption based on "your" experienced in the styles you've learned.

Other methods and styles use different ways....


Ruthlessness (Chan)
Evade (Syim)
Pierce through (Chuen)
Intercept (Jeet)

https://www.baihepai.com/pak-hok-pai-li ... -siu-jong/

Tibetan White Crane, like Hop Gar uses 4 main ideas expressed in its basic strategies

How they’re expressed varies depending on a practitioners skill and level of practice.
We speak of striking, as one of the basic methods of defeating the opponent.

IME one can control another’s movement "options" through position, distance and timing with out having to touch their body or control a limb directly.

With TWC the basic idea is not to block. To be able to hit the other in a range that they do not operate in.

If one is in range. they are either getting hit, or hitting.
If one does not understand how to control through distance, position and timing,
They might be in for an awaking by those that do.

Seems kinda basic, to relegate it to a western or eastern concept is strange.

A better way might be to look at it through the lens of functionality

Method, to the body (physical body? All specific methods as one body. Mind is the master, the main principle.

Application of the method is the mother. Because, what is derived out of oneself is the body. The way to maneuver the body is the method. What is directed towards the enemy is [the] application [of the method].

Therefore, the body, the application, the outside, and the inside are all prevailed by method. Only when one talks (of) method, it is about its body and application. Float a piece of bamboo on water, but [you] cannot make it sink. Throw a pearl on a tray, but you cannot stop it from spinning. The pearl would run left and right like a wheel, being pushed, pulled, let go and drawn.



An old argument concerning looking like kick boxing.
One that can only be settled by those claiming to practice their art.

answered my own questions long ago.

"White Crane very distinctive, geared towards fighting. The distinctive foot work coupled with what is called “long arm” made the style very effective in operating inside the kicking range and yet outside the punching range of most styles. The conditioning and training followed typical regimens that fighters use with specialized training unique to the style.

As a young teenager, later a young GI in the US Army I would have many encounters with people who practiced different styles correcting what I felt were misconceptions about CMA. In the traditional way the style white crane spoke through me in answer to their questions."
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby windwalker on Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:29 pm

Some of the points made..

intercepting
Penetrating

Addresses distance and timing.


4:06


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeEeYOaGjUA&t=4s

Very distinctive in use.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:51 pm

In the above video, they at one point demonstrate the way the traditional movements can intercept and deflect the opponents strike while allowing you to evade. To my perspective, the aspect of contacting in a way that causes a deflection is a form of control. If you wanted to dominate your opponent using such interceptions/deflections than you are moving into the realm of unbalancing with contact. If the same movements were demonstrated as being purely for striking the opponent without creating any control, than I would say that those lama punchs are less effective than western boxing. In my experience, the way the lama punch not only allows you to strike but also to intercept and potentially unbalance the opponent, is the concrete reason for the techniques to be done the historical way. If you took out the interception/controlling aspect than their would be no practical reason to move that way over western boxing methods.

There are some deeper points in this discussion. One being that, if we assume that CMA developed out of some practical considerations, than the stylistic differences must be for a concrete reason and not just an arbitrary aesthetic choice. Meaning, CMA is trying to do something that kickboxing isn't particularly interested in trying to do. Namely, CMA is interested in controlling the opponent directly through touch and not only remotely through position; for this reason, CMA has movements like the lama punch that can contact the opponents arm, deflecting and momentarily disrupting them, while striking with the fist.

I dont have experience with the lama or tibetan styles so these are just my observations.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby dspyrido on Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:59 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:The above clip illustrates the issue I've brought up. The way this two person form is done, neither person has any effect on the other. I don't think that if we simply turn up the speed or aggression or the intent to hit, that these methods will become effective. In fact, I think thats exactly what gets TCMA people destroyed by competitive fighters. Those TCMA people think that if they simply try to hit their opponent they will be effective which is just not the case.


Yes and no. If they train the form only and assume it can be used - then you're right. Look at it as a training excercise that teaches movement and evasion which must also be trained with sparring & other method. It has some utility.

That said - I agree with you. I don't think these guys do a lot of sparring or grappling because their distancing is off.

rojcewiczj wrote:Wing Chun people seem to have often made this mistake, where they think chain punching and front kicking will knock people out. It just doesn't work like that.


It can and does. A couple of well placed hits can knock someone out. The problem is when things go to pieces and they don't have other tactics e.g. opponent drops down, does a single leg and is taking them down .. then what?

rojcewiczj wrote:I think those TCMA that degraded into pure striking, are just that, degraded. Striking can work, that is what contemporary boxing, kickboxing, muay thai are for, they are for making striking work on its own terms. Looking at TCMA I find it basically impossible to make the argument, especially to those uninterested in TCMA, that all these methods will help them strike someone from kickboxing/boxing range, if that was the case people would have already caught on to that. There is a simple issue with passing down TCMA skills, in that it sometimes takes years for people to gain real unbalancing/take-down skill, if ever.


There's no such thing as pure striking in boxing, kickboxing or MT. They have control and grappling methods.

Any martial art that does not deal with weight will run into the same problem. Sports TWD is a good example of this.

This is where Sanda does play. It teaches striking, how to bridge without getting hit to setup throws & then how to throw. Then it teaches how to avoid and counter striking, entries and throws.

Any TCMA that bothers to test and adapt through sparring and open attacking/defending options will have a much higher chance. Any that limits to the openness in the sparring can create gaps in knowledge.

Take TC push hands. If the focus is to only learn to displace a person through the arms/torso then some weight handling is learnt. But how does it cope when exposed to a double leg? Without some training things can get messy quickly for the TC person.

What happens to TC push hands when it's not just the hands but open to many grappling methods? What happens when striking is introduced? How can all this be tested?

Hence leitei/sanshou

How can it be tested & trained without causing a huge amount of damage?

Hence ... free fighting/sanda was born.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby dspyrido on Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:07 pm

johnwang wrote:If you start to teach your student Sanda, how will you start? I'll use the following steps.

1. Use foot sweep to set up another kick.
2. Use kick to set up a jab.

After that, the jab can be changed into a pull followed by a

- cross, or
- hook.

The training is really very simple and straight forward.


Kicking first requires them to be low telegraphed and fast. Otherwise it's too slow and too predictable. It's not easy for a beginner to get that.

I would start with the hands first and then kick/sweep as entries.

Jab, cross, rear kick
Jab, inside foot sweep, cross, round kick

It's easier to get.

Then I would teach the reversal like you have outlined when they can minimise weight shifts and can move more fluidly.

Then they have options and can swap between them.

Then I'd add counters to these entries so both sides are learning.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:11 pm

How important is it to control your opponent's leading arm?

From the

- wrestling art point of view, without leading arm control, 75% of the throw cannot be done.
- striking art point of view, if you allow your opponent to have 2 free arms, you are not doing yourself any favor.

Since to control the leading arm is so important, you just have to spend some effort to obtain it.

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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby windwalker on Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:12 pm

I would say that those lama punchs are less effective than western boxing.


Interesting, you don’t understand the foot work, that makes it work.

Used to do a lot of sparring with people who said they boxed when I was younger.
Would agree not to kick them. In almost all instances because of the way the white crane punches work/are used I had the advantage despite they being better at boxing than myself not knowing how to box.

Any point touched is hitting, cutting or slicing. If you’re in range, not understanding this, your going to get hit.

The main point mentioned, CMA didn’t or doesn’t have any arts using striking, as its primary means of technique.
Those that do are supposedly work / look like kickboxing.

Both not true. :)
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby windwalker on Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:15 pm

That said - I agree with you. I don't think these guys do a lot of sparring or grappling because their distancing is off.


Thanks made me laugh ;D

Anyway good conversation,
interesting views expressed.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:20 pm

dspyrido wrote:Kicking first requires them to be low telegraphed and fast. Otherwise it's too slow and too predictable. It's not easy for a beginner to get that.

I would start with the hands first and then kick/sweep as entries.

You want your opponent to see your kick and respond to it. You then respond to his respond. The advantage of this approach is you force your opponent to respond your attack. It's better than to let your opponent to force you to respond to his attack.

When you sweep my foot, I can only have 2 responds to your sweep:

1. Escape out of your sweep - you can attack my back leg.
2. Use my shin bone to jam into your sweep - you can scoop my leading leg.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:30 pm

When I'm sparring, I choose to think like a wrestler who can strike without stopping their wrestling. I find this intent helps guide me through different ranges. When I'm far out, I can change levels/ move to the sides while entering with my hands engaging with strikes or deflections. At clinch range I can frame on my opponent, apply weight feel for take-downs, and use my weight through structure to counter take-downs. I find this way of thinking carries over into my forms and solo drills, as then I think about structure and weight movement and don't worry about muscle force. Overall my goal is to fully understand my own intention in combat and in solo movement, and for that intent to essentially be unified.
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