Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Trick on Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:03 am

Quigga wrote:

"Dude, there are like, super strong people in China. People who train in the hidden art of Golden Eagle Claw Eight Gates Boxing. They are so able to kill everyone else. All those MMA fighters got no crap against the underground Ninjas in China! Why would the 108th Patriarch of Long Flow Kicking have to proof anything? I saw him kill someone, like, totally. And I heard his students talk about his untouched winning streak... Untouched 'cause he maimed everyone, without ever allowing his fool of an enemy to touch him. Like, really. But they keep secret you know, so I can't tell you anything more about them... "

Uuuuugh, writing this physically hurt me :-X

..

However i don’t think MMA fighters feel hurt by such.....
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Trick on Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:08 am

windwalker wrote:
I fail to understand people asking for proof outside of their experience
When only through their experience will provide any real answers

It’s an Internet thing
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Trick on Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:20 am

johnwang wrote:-

- The 2nd CMA problem is it has too many forms. The long fist system has 10 open hand forms and 6 weapon forms (there are more in the long fist system). When you train form, you don't have much time left to train in the ring.

- .
Is there a common thread running through all the forms, or are they very different from each other.....I mean if you learned one properly the next 9 will be easily understood ?
But As you mention this as a problem I take they differ quite a lot ?
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Trick on Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:36 am

Does this “rivalry” exist in Japanese budo where it’s divided into gendai budo and koryu budo, modern and traditional...are there much force toward the traditional to step up in the ring and prove themselves ?
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:01 am

.Q. wrote:It's weird how practical CMA is discussed as if it's a magical unicorn that one has to commit to moving to an exotic land to learn. There are plenty of people teaching it in the west. It might be necessary to move to China if you're looking for the best of the best or something rare but if you have no connections, I bet your chance of finding decent schools that spar in the US is actually higher than in China. China is way too big and have all these layers of tradition and customs you have to get through first. If you lower your expectations from what master level CMA looks like to just reasonably practical usage, then it's much easier to find.
I just randomly googled preying mantis sparring and some of these guys at least actually use proper stances when they spar. I see recognizable techniques applied in the right situation occasionally. I've seen better but I've only searched for a few minutes.

Disregarding the fact that the Gongfu here seems much lower level, for the most part, I trained six hours a day, six days a week for two years, five hours a day, five days a week for three years and three hours a day, three days a week for three years (and other years less intensively). Would that be possible, whilst also supporting your family financially, in the States? During that time I also learning how to speak fluent Chinese.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby windwalker on Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:18 am

nice flavor ;)

style of mantis?

Reminds me of the mantis we practiced in Korea
Not my teacher or class, same type of training


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA5-Q6wALTg

my teachers history for those interested
He mentioned learning kung fu at that time in Korea was not easy as the Chinese
didn't really want to teach Koreans.

Shifu Park Chil Sung

“was born in 1930 in what is now North Korea. He first began studying gong fu within his family at a very young age (around 7 or 8 years old). He later traveled around the Korean peninsula studying under any master he could find. At that time he met his main master, shifu Lin Ping Jiang.

During the Korean war he along with most other young men from his home town were recruited to fight for the south as guerilla fighters not actually associated with the formal army. After the war he was able to relocate to the south and has not seen his family since then. Shifu Park Chil Sung worked for some time after the war for the South Korean equivalent of the American CIA, teaching hand to hand combat.”

http://www.oocities.org/mantiscave/parkchil.htm

He mentioned they did use their art in the war, hunting the Communist in the mountains

note: no longer practice the style, a small part of my own path
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby .Q. on Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:30 am

MaartenSFS wrote:
.Q. wrote:It's weird how practical CMA is discussed as if it's a magical unicorn that one has to commit to moving to an exotic land to learn. There are plenty of people teaching it in the west. It might be necessary to move to China if you're looking for the best of the best or something rare but if you have no connections, I bet your chance of finding decent schools that spar in the US is actually higher than in China. China is way too big and have all these layers of tradition and customs you have to get through first. If you lower your expectations from what master level CMA looks like to just reasonably practical usage, then it's much easier to find.
I just randomly googled preying mantis sparring and some of these guys at least actually use proper stances when they spar. I see recognizable techniques applied in the right situation occasionally. I've seen better but I've only searched for a few minutes.

Disregarding the fact that the Gongfu here seems much lower level, for the most part, I trained six hours a day, six days a week for two years, five hours a day, five days a week for three years and three hours a day, three days a week for three years (and other years less intensively). Would that be possible, whilst also supporting your family financially, in the States? During that time I also learning how to speak fluent Chinese.

That's just what I said though. Unless you need the best of the best, you're fine with what's available in the states (I'm sure there are a rare few that will match highest level in China). Most people aren't going to train that hard regardless if they're in China or not. Even if you THINK you are, prove it to yourself first by seeing how far you can get in the states before throwing away everything to move to some country with vastly different customs.
Oh, I also suspect the average person that went to China to study will not fare as well sparring as these guys.
Last edited by .Q. on Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:49 am

johnwang wrote:- The 1st CMA problem is it takes too much time to develop some dependable skill.

When I competed in tournament, my head lock was not strong enough. When my head lock was strong enough, I don't compete in tournament any more. I would love to wrestle with my old training partner and test my head lock on him again (he has a big neck and my head lock didn't work on him before). But he won't wrestle with me any more.

Why rely on strength to develop dependable skill? Is that shuai chiao concept? I thought one should build skill based on attributes other than strength (e.g., change of direction, timing, strategy, etc.).

johnwang wrote:- The 2nd CMA problem is it has too many forms. The long fist system has 10 open hand forms and 6 weapon forms (there are more in the long fist system). When you train form, you don't have much time left to train in the ring.

Most training for MMA, if not all, do not do forms. They shadow box, equipment, drills, technical spar, etc. Ramsey said TMAists need to learn how to fight, then incorporate their TMA techniques.

johnwang wrote:- The 3rd CMA problem is the face. When you become a teacher, you may not want to take the chance of losing. Many CMA masters became teachers too soon. They lost the chance to test their skill in the ring too early.

Until we can solve those issues, to send CMA fighters to the MMA ring can be difficult.

The OP article showed fighters already use CMA techniques in MMA. So, I don't see the difficulty if TCMAists are willing to evolve their training.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:00 pm

.Q. wrote:That's just what I said though. Unless you need the best of the best, you're fine with what's available in the states (I'm sure there are a rare few that will match highest level in China). Most people aren't going to train that hard regardless if they're in China or not. Even if you THINK you are, prove it to yourself first by seeing how far you can get in the states before throwing away everything to move to some country with vastly different customs.
Oh, I also suspect the average person that went to China to study will not fare as well sparring as these guys.

Best of the best in just sparring/fighting? Or CMA in particular? Ramsey's opinion was, one should learn how to fight in a top U.S. MMA gym, then incorporate TCMA techniques.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:07 pm

Trick wrote:
johnwang wrote:-

- The 2nd CMA problem is it has too many forms. The long fist system has 10 open hand forms and 6 weapon forms (there are more in the long fist system). When you train form, you don't have much time left to train in the ring.

- .
Is there a common thread running through all the forms, or are they very different from each other.....I mean if you learned one properly the next 9 will be easily understood ?
But As you mention this as a problem I take they differ quite a lot ?

The

- basic forms (Tan tui, Lien Bu Chuan, Gong Li Chuan) are used to build up foundation.
- intermediate form (3rd road Pao Chuan, Si Zi Tan, ...) are used to train foot work.
- advance form (4th Road Cha Chuan, Tai Zu long fist) are used to train body coordination.

Here is a part of the advance form 4th Road Cha Chuan. You can see it's quite challenged for beginners.

Image
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:15 pm

marvin8 wrote:Why rely on strength to develop dependable skill? Is that shuai chiao concept? I thought one should build skill based on attributes other than strength (e.g., change of direction, timing, strategy, etc.).

A strong head lock is no different from a strong punch, or a strong kick. It helps you to end a fight quicker.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:25 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Why rely on strength to develop dependable skill? Is that shuai chiao concept? I thought one should build skill based on attributes other than strength (e.g., change of direction, timing, strategy, etc.).

A strong head lock is no different from a strong punch, or a strong kick. It helps you to end a fight quicker.

There is more to ending a fight than strength—like trapping an opponent to walk into a well executed technique.
Last edited by marvin8 on Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby .Q. on Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:01 pm

marvin8 wrote:
.Q. wrote:That's just what I said though. Unless you need the best of the best, you're fine with what's available in the states (I'm sure there are a rare few that will match highest level in China). Most people aren't going to train that hard regardless if they're in China or not. Even if you THINK you are, prove it to yourself first by seeing how far you can get in the states before throwing away everything to move to some country with vastly different customs.
Oh, I also suspect the average person that went to China to study will not fare as well sparring as these guys.

Best of the best in just sparring/fighting? Or CMA in particular? Ramsey's opinion was, one should learn how to fight in a top U.S. MMA gym, then incorporate TCMA techniques.

I meant best of the best in CMA. So pretty much in line w/ what Ramsey said. It's not that you can't learn sparring/fighting directly via CMA if you're in the right school, it's that:
1) Your chance of finding that right school and have everything (life matters too) aligned to be able to train at the proper level is very, very low. Provided you don't already have great connections.
2) You yourself might not be the type to work that hard. I'm sure a lot of people overestimate how much they're willing to commit to this.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Finny on Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:55 pm

Trick wrote:Does this “rivalry” exist in Japanese budo where it’s divided into gendai budo and koryu budo, modern and traditional...are there much force toward the traditional to step up in the ring and prove themselves ?


Koryu almost always have an overwhelming focus on weapon training.

Not many people want to shoot a double in the ring against someone holding a stick or sword. And they don't claim to be combat sports/fighters.

I'll kick back and enjoy this little flashback to '04.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby everything on Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:15 pm

these days, at least in the usa, some lunatic just takes his automatic weapon and kills innocent bystanders. all this stupid talk of "deadly" wrt bare hand MA is nice, but what is the point? fun, sport, self-actualization, just being really, really good at something, confidence, etc. ----> I'm all for those. if you just want to defeat fedor in the fantasy match in your head, not sure how to help you. but once you realize those benefits are the benefits, there are a million other things you can do that might be more fulfilling. go fishing. play golf. make money. volunteer. whatever. maybe just rant on rsf.
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