Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:40 pm

.Q. wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
.Q. wrote:That's just what I said though. Unless you need the best of the best, you're fine with what's available in the states (I'm sure there are a rare few that will match highest level in China). Most people aren't going to train that hard regardless if they're in China or not. Even if you THINK you are, prove it to yourself first by seeing how far you can get in the states before throwing away everything to move to some country with vastly different customs.
Oh, I also suspect the average person that went to China to study will not fare as well sparring as these guys.

Best of the best in just sparring/fighting? Or CMA in particular? Ramsey's opinion was, one should learn how to fight in a top U.S. MMA gym, then incorporate TCMA techniques.

I meant best of the best in CMA. So pretty much in line w/ what Ramsey said. It's not that you can't learn sparring/fighting directly via CMA if you're in the right school, it's that:
1) Your chance of finding that right school and have everything (life matters too) aligned to be able to train at the proper level is very, very low. Provided you don't already have great connections.

Right, Ramsey is talking about the "typical" TMA school that does not teach "pragmatically how to win fights." However, he said he met an old tai chi master who could "fight, primarily grapple: hip throws, sweeps, leg grabs, arm drags, wrist locks, shoulder locks, throws, takedowns, slipping punches, movement—simple, nothing fancy or mystical stuff."

.Q. wrote:2) You yourself might not be the type to work that hard. I'm sure a lot of people overestimate how much they're willing to commit to this.

It's assumed that the TCMA guys that lost to Xu Xiaodong committed a lot of hard work in their TCMA. So, it's finding and committing to the correct path to one's goal.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:31 pm

johnwang wrote:Here is a part of the advance form 4th Road Cha Chuan. You can see it's quite challenged for beginners.

https://i.postimg.cc/hjxZTqPp/4th-road-cha-chuan-1.gif

Another example of a CMA technique found in MMA.

Image

Taekwondo master Valerie Loureda vs Tara Graff in recent Bellator match. Common counter to low kick—the overhand right:

Image
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:43 pm

CMA has good stuff. The only issue is most people train it for health, and not for combat.
I'm still allergic to "push".
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby wiesiek on Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:47 am

...When you limit this intent, you limit your opportunities. Training to kill is not the same as training to fight rounds..."

very good statement,
however
how to find the solution for >reality check< ,w/o killing training partner ?
nothing better than competition with some rules has been developed, so far...
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Trick on Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:11 am

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:
johnwang wrote:-

- The 2nd CMA problem is it has too many forms. The long fist system has 10 open hand forms and 6 weapon forms (there are more in the long fist system). When you train form, you don't have much time left to train in the ring.

- .
Is there a common thread running through all the forms, or are they very different from each other.....I mean if you learned one properly the next 9 will be easily understood ?
But As you mention this as a problem I take they differ quite a lot ?

The

- basic forms (Tan tui, Lien Bu Chuan, Gong Li Chuan) are used to build up foundation.
- intermediate form (3rd road Pao Chuan, Si Zi Tan, ...) are used to train foot work.
- advance form (4th Road Cha Chuan, Tai Zu long fist) are used to train body coordination.

Here is a part of the advance form 4th Road Cha Chuan. You can see it's quite challenged for beginners.

Image

thanks. For example XYQ have a crucial thread going through the elements to the animals..it all goes back to piquan....In Shotokan Karate(which itrained in many years ago) there are 26 forms(katas) But all follow basically same specific theme.....all focus on foundation, foot work and body coordination
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby everything on Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:59 am

klonk wrote:The great problem with sanda is they are acting like there is no acting.


lolol they don't know the theatrical history
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:22 pm

Trick wrote:thanks. For example XYQ have a crucial thread going through the elements to the animals..it all goes back to piquan....In Shotokan Karate(which itrained in many years ago) there are 26 forms(katas) But all follow basically same specific theme.....all focus on foundation, foot work and body coordination

XYQ train dynamic punch during the beginner stage (punch while feet are moving). Long fist start from static punch and then move into dynamic punch.

Here is the intermediate level long fist training - dynamic punch.

Image
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby dspyrido on Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:17 pm

marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of standard TCMA pad work and partner drills that are at the same level as modern combat training?


STANDARD? Why is that even relevant? Now you sound like you're reaching for a weak argument in the face of evidence. I believe the term trolling has been mentioned...

Anyway ... some vids of padwork & other stuff that is not STANDARD boxing (which BTW only exists a loose collective with good coaches carefully guarding their training secrets):









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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:01 pm

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of standard TCMA pad work and partner drills that are at the same level as modern combat training?


STANDARD? Why is that even relevant?

It's relevant because it's the subject of the OP article. The OP article is about those typical TCMA fighters that do not modernize their training and don't consider sanda as evolved from TCMA.

dspyrido wrote:Anyway ... some vids of padwork & other stuff that is not STANDARD boxing (which BTW only exists a loose collective with good coaches carefully guarding their training secrets):

There is no argument that some TCMA schools adopt modern training, like in your examples, which is what the OP article and videos are advocating. What is the point you want to discuss/argue?

marvin8 wrote:"Q&A with Master Chen Bing:"
2017-06-01 wrote:New Beginning: Taijiquan, dare to take on a supermatch with Sanda?

Chen Bing: Greetings New Beginning! Are you just curious, or do you have some particularly fascinating ideas? Sanda originated from traditional wushu but exceeds folk martial arts in many aspects including training methods, intensity, practical combat applications, body recovery, nutrition, as well as selection of athletes. Though related, there are many differences [between taijiquan and sanda]. Why not learn from each other and improve together? I think that would be more pragmatic and important than calling dares.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby edededed on Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:04 pm

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:thanks. For example XYQ have a crucial thread going through the elements to the animals..it all goes back to piquan....In Shotokan Karate(which itrained in many years ago) there are 26 forms(katas) But all follow basically same specific theme.....all focus on foundation, foot work and body coordination

XYQ train dynamic punch during the beginner stage (punch while feet are moving). Long fist start from static punch and then move into dynamic punch.

Here is the intermediate level long fist training - dynamic punch.

Image


I think I see some punching like that in Chaquan 4 lu.

Many xingyiquan schools actually do start with static punching.
My understanding is that this is the traditional way (it is also logically correct), but due to popularity many now teach the moving forms first.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Trick on Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:30 am

johnwang wrote:[

Here is the intermediate level long fist training - dynamic punch.

Image
that’s interesting,I have not seen much Longfist at all(obviously)
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:34 pm

Trick wrote:that’s interesting,I have not seen much Longfist at all(obviously)

The WC form can be trained in a telephone booth. The long fist 3rd road Pao Chuan require 1/2 of the basket ball field to train.

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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Quigga on Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:54 pm

johnwang wrote:- The 1st CMA problem is it takes too much time to develop some dependable skill.

When I competed in tournament, my head lock was not strong enough. When my head lock was strong enough, I don't compete in tournament any more. I would love to wrestle with my old training partner and test my head lock on him again (he has a big neck and my head lock didn't work on him before). But he won't wrestle with me any more.

- The 2nd CMA problem is it has too many forms. The long fist system has 10 open hand forms and 6 weapon forms (there are more in the long fist system). When you train form, you don't have much time left to train in the ring.

- The 3rd CMA problem is the face. When you become a teacher, you may not want to take the chance of losing. Many CMA masters became teachers too soon. They lost the chance to test their skill in the ring too early.

Until we can solve those issues, to send CMA fighters to the MMA ring can be difficult.



What is a dependable skill for you? Does it mean you can get a headlock 80% of the time in a 3 minute encounter with any person? Or does it mean whenever you want to, you can headlock your enemy? Or maybe striving to get a headlock in all the time isn't the best way to fight? Honest questions. What stops you from going to local Greco Roman or BJJ wrestling groups and trying out your headlock?

Can you train a form in the ring?

Losing face via losing a fight is bullshit... If anything, it shows virtue and quality of character when you admit defeat and work on not being defeated in the same way.

IMO, a skill is not an attribute. Utilizing headlock skill is not being light. You can be light while applying a headlock or having a headlock applied to you...

Addition: what benefits over other grappling arts does Shuaijiao have? How much does it change without clothing to grip on? Could you use the chain fence in the cage for some throws or locks?
Last edited by Quigga on Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Quigga on Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:11 pm

everything wrote:the tma vs. mma debate ended in 1992 more or less. sanda is/was such a cool format, but royce came along and changed everything. it'd be cool for sanda to continue.

there are some problems based on people's return on time invested.

if someone wants competition, the more popular sports are much more difficult to do well at, relatively speaking, due to much better and more available participants. if you only like combat sports, you should do the most popular ones (again, better/more competition). this has nothing to do with where some aspect of some ma came from. if you're not looking at global popularity/availability, your niche is just too niche. i mean, more power to you to keep some niches going, though.


Some debates cool down before they heat up again...
Again, it all depends on what you want to get out of something. In what culture do you want to practice?
How can we make IMA less of a niche? By not overcomplicating things... Yet not leaving any material behind. Quite the challenging compromise IMO.

In 'popular modern martial arts' you have phrases describing the desired body state for a fighter as well...

Sting like a butterfly... Be light on your hands...
Fly like a bee... Be heavy on your feet...
Sounds kind of right and wrong at the same time, doesn't it?

In IMA we have developed a very precise vocabulary for pinpointing different body states and precise training methods to lead to those attributes. Some people might not grasp the phrase 'be light on your feet and have heavy hands', so how can we train a person to achieve this?

The answer is the method ;D

Jokes aside, why don't we have a unified vocabulary yet?
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Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Quigga on Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:57 am

johnwang wrote:
.Q. wrote:It's weird how practical CMA is discussed as if it's a magical unicorn that one has to commit to moving to an exotic land to learn.

Agree! One can learn Sanda in US as well.

In the following clip, this white guy has 100% training in CMA (long fist and SC). The interested part of this clip is this guy tries to use the same combo 4 times.

- Roundhouse kick,
- Side kick,
- Clinch,
- Outer hook the back standing leg.


It works for the first 2 times (0.02, 0.13). It fails for the others (0.51, 1.09). It prove that "combo training" is unique in CMA and work. It also proves that the same plan may only work during the beginning. A CMA guy always fight with a plan, not just fight any way that he may feel like to.



Is jab high, jab low, right hook to head, left hook to liver a combo? Can you have multiple combos and then apply each one in a different situation, according to when it feels right? Can you have a plan where your feeling is integrated?
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