Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Quigga on Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:44 am

everything wrote:these days, at least in the usa, some lunatic just takes his automatic weapon and kills innocent bystanders. all this stupid talk of "deadly" wrt bare hand MA is nice, but what is the point? fun, sport, self-actualization, just being really, really good at something, confidence, etc. ----> I'm all for those. if you just want to defeat fedor in the fantasy match in your head, not sure how to help you. but once you realize those benefits are the benefits, there are a million other things you can do that might be more fulfilling. go fishing. play golf. make money. volunteer. whatever. maybe just rant on rsf.


Wanting to kill is not the same as being able to and not the same as doing it... Having the modifier 'I might have to kill with this some day to protect my family and livelihood' adds another drive for me...

I can do many other things that give me: self-actualization, fun, sport, confidence, getting really good at something... When broken down that way, it sounds like any other sport or hobby. Why, specifically, should I engage in a traditional martial art where the essence is left out? Personal fulfillment is very overrated nowadays IMO. How can you be fulfilled when there are so many others suffering so much worse than the small you is right now? What about finding fulfillment in fulfilling your duty?

If you practice you extrasensory situational awareness, maybe you could avoid the armed lunatic?
It's always nice to know when someone might be about to hurt you. Being able to intimidate is also nice, even if it's just your superiors at work.

We don't have to get into why people are fixated with 'fantasy matches'... Always an inferiority complex where one thinks you could elevate yourself above others by being threatening all the time... However, sometimes you might need those attributes and I'd say you're not complete as a human if you don't reflect upon this.

I'm fully aware that warfare has changed and you could spent 50 years of your life training just to be gunned down by a 14 year old hood boy. Or other such examples. Maybe being aware and not denying that killing is a part of life and essential to martial arts would have prevented you from walking blindly into such a situation, with dulled senses.

IMO we could use a bit more misery, poverty, killing in 1st world countries just so people wake the f*** up as to how good we have it here and finally focus on global problems instead of the 64th installment of social justice and who is more oppressed. People in the 1st world scream for more freedom when they are the most free people there have ever been... The simple solution would be to emphasize personal responsibility :-\
Quigga
Mingjing
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:08 pm

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Quigga on Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:52 am

wiesiek wrote:...When you limit this intent, you limit your opportunities. Training to kill is not the same as training to fight rounds..."

very good statement,
however
how to find the solution for >reality check< ,w/o killing training partner ?
nothing better than competition with some rules has been developed, so far...


That's true, and I don't think there will be any better format...
Reality check would be if you are in control of the situation or not. Would your next action be a definite life stopper or not. Meaning you go 9/10th of the way, without actually doing it... My first Tai Chi teacher (120kg) liked to put his knee on the side of my ribcage when I was lying on the floor... In my mind I thought I still could do something to escape, but the reality was, he was in complete control of what would happen next... And he let me know it. That would be a good reality check IMO.
Quigga
Mingjing
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:08 pm

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:28 pm

Quigga wrote:Is jab high, jab low, right hook to head, left hook to liver a combo? Can you have multiple combos and then apply each one in a different situation, according to when it feels right? Can you have a plan where your feeling is integrated?

Combo is used to close in the distance safely with door open move. You can have many favor combos. But most people just keep no more than 4. 2 for uniform stance, 2 for mirror stance.

Quigga wrote:Addition: what benefits over other grappling arts does Shuaijiao have?

The major difference between SC and other throwing art is the strategy.

- In many other throwing art such as Judo or wrestling, 2 persons get into a clinch first. Each person then wait for opportunity to attack.
- The SC strategy is to establish a clinch that you have control on your opponent. But you don't want your opponent to have control on you. When your opponent has control on you, you give up your own control, break apart, and start all over again.

Quigga wrote:What is a dependable skill for you? Does it mean you can get a headlock 80% of the time in a 3 minute encounter with any person? Or does it mean whenever you want to, you can headlock your enemy? Or maybe striving to get a headlock in all the time isn't the best way to fight? Honest questions. What stops you from going to local Greco Roman or BJJ wrestling groups and trying out your headlock?

A dependable skill is a skill that you can use it to end a fight. Take the head lock for example, if your opponent attacks you, you should be able to use "separate hands" to deal with his attacking arms, and end with a head lock. 3 years ago, I used my head lock to tap out a Greco Roman guy who was 50 lb heavy than me, and 45 years younger than me.

The advantage to train head lock is when your opponent moves in and attacks you, it gives you a chance to head lock him. So you will be happy to see any attack comes into you. It's much easier to get a head lock on a incoming opponent. It's much harder to get a head lock on an opponent who just dances around you.
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9573
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:12 pm

johnwang wrote:
Quigga wrote:Addition: what benefits over other grappling arts does Shuaijiao have?

The major difference between SC and other throwing art is the strategy.

- In many other throwing art such as Judo or wrestling, 2 persons get into a clinch first. Each person then wait for opportunity to attack.
- The SC strategy is to establish a clinch that you have control on your opponent. But you don't want your opponent to have control on you. When your opponent has control on you, you give up your own control, break apart, and start all over again.

False, that's not a major difference or benefit. Judo (grip fighting/kumi kata), wrestling (e.g. push/pull, wrist grabs) and many combat sports establish position/control, before getting into a clinch.

johnwang wrote:
Quigga wrote:What is a dependable skill for you? Does it mean you can get a headlock 80% of the time in a 3 minute encounter with any person? Or does it mean whenever you want to, you can headlock your enemy? Or maybe striving to get a headlock in all the time isn't the best way to fight? Honest questions. What stops you from going to local Greco Roman or BJJ wrestling groups and trying out your headlock?

A dependable skill is a skill that you can use it to end a fight. Take the head lock for example, if your opponent attacks you, you should be able to use "separate hands" to deal with his attacking arms, and end with a head lock.

A headlock is not dependable if before or as you separate your hands the opponent hits or kicks you, preventing the headlock.

johnwang wrote:The advantage to train head lock is when your opponent moves in and attacks you, it gives you a chance to head lock him. So you will be happy to see any attack comes into you. It's much easier to get a head lock on a incoming opponent. It's much harder to get a head lock on an opponent who just dances around you.

Not only dances. It's hard to get a head lock on an opponent who controls, kicks or punches from outside clinching range.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2170
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby dspyrido on Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:22 pm

marvin8 wrote:There is no argument that some TCMA schools adopt modern training, like in your examples, which is what the OP article and videos are advocating. What is the point you want to discuss/argue?


That in the face of contrary evidence you keep wanting to drive a flawed agenda.

At the very least my posts can show other readers that views like "modern training" is a close minded & self limiting term.

That so called TCMA is not STANDARD and that there are many variations with some practitioners being more open minded than others.

At a minimum that sanda is accepted & practised by many TCMA practitioners along with padwork, bag work, gloves, weights & sparring equipment because they are individuals that like experimenting & testing.

TCMA would not be so varied & colourful if deep down there was no mindset for adaptation or openness.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby marvin8 on Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:06 pm

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:There is no argument that some TCMA schools adopt modern training, like in your examples, which is what the OP article and videos are advocating. What is the point you want to discuss/argue?


That in the face of contrary evidence you keep wanting to drive a flawed agenda.

On the contrary, your evidence supports some TCMA has adapted/modernized.

You "keep wanting to drive a flawed agenda (strawman)," that I have one. Rather, I said:
marvin8 wrote:The OP article and Ramsey (who differ on the definition of sanda) say modern training is superior to TCMA and TCMAist should evolve their training. Whoever disagrees, what training, attributes, etc do you feel are superior to modern training and highest ranked sport fighters?


dspyrido wrote:At the very least my posts can show other readers that views like "modern training" is a close minded & self limiting term.

Then, please give your own term for TCMA that adopt and are open to new training methods.

dspyrido wrote:At a minimum that sanda is accepted & practised by many TCMA practitioners along with padwork, bag work, gloves, weights & sparring equipment because they are individuals that like experimenting & testing.

TCMA would not be so varied & colourful if deep down there was no mindset for adaptation or openness.

Right. And, it's referred to as evolved or modern training by the OP article, videos, Chen Bing, etc.

Right. But do you agree that some TCMA do not adopt sanda type training?
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2170
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby everything on Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:58 pm

- wrestling is ancient and "traditional" - but it's relatively safe to practice at full speed/strength
- techniques that are deadlier such as sword techniques - presumably people found a way to practice them in some kind of sparring way
- so "traditional" must've used to have better training with more "testing". then it got lost for whatever reasons we already talked about hundreds of times. rockets for example.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5889
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:26 pm

It's sad. About half of the skilled masters that I met incorporated "modern" training methods into their training and were monsters. The people that only do the "modern training" miss out on some incredible traditional training methods that could really help them in the ring, but their prejudice automatically excludes them from being taught any of it. Soon it will all be lost to time...
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 2269
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Lansing, Michigan

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby klonk on Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:24 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:It's sad. About half of the skilled masters that I met incorporated "modern" training methods into their training and were monsters. The people that only do the "modern training" miss out on some incredible traditional training methods that could really help them in the ring, but their prejudice automatically excludes them from being taught any of it. Soon it will all be lost to time...


What often happened was that the hidden treasure was, after all, of no value at all. That perception will color understanding of CMA for generations. Real treasure in old hidden CMA? Certainly. I wish I knew the half of it. I do not know the tenth of it.

Perhaps this would help. Anyone who wishes to teach superior methods should take brief soujourn to the USA, take a "Y" course in amateur boxing, and then send us suggestions from the safe distance of China.

I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
User avatar
klonk
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6769
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:46 am

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Trick on Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:32 am

I’m all for putting on (boxing)gloves or (stand up) wrestle if free sparring is something want want to be a part in ones TCMA practice.
It’s the “safest” ways but tough enough, and it won’t deteriorate the traditional training methods cause they are very much put at play anyway in such sparring
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 3782
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby Trick on Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:42 am

I do like the “semi, semi” contact gloveless sparring as done within Shotokan karate(JKA), it has been refined to a very nice and safe but tough enough sparring format over the decades....but the format require good self discipline to work
Last edited by Trick on Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 3782
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:06 pm

The reason Sanda guys can fight is because people who practice Sanda are usually athletic young men who are willing to spend hours a day on conditioning, free sparring, and grappling.

If TCMA guys start adapting their techniques for the ring and train as hard as the Sanda guys, will people still be able to say that TCMA guys can't fight?

The solution has always been sitting right there on the dusty old shelf.
;)
Last edited by C.J.W. on Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
C.J.W.
Wuji
 
Posts: 1857
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:02 am

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:02 pm

C.J.W. wrote:The reason Sanda guys can fight is because people who practice Sanda are usually athletic young men who are willing to spend hours a day on conditioning, free sparring, and grappling.

If TCMA guys start adapting their techniques for the ring and train as hard as the Sanda guys, will people still be able to say that TCMA guys can't fight?

The solution has always been sitting right there on the dusty old shelf.
;)

Agree with you 100% there.

Some people just care too much about "internal" this and "internal" that. As long as you can land your fist on your opponent face, that's all it matters.

Did Bruce use "internal" punch or external punch? Who cares?

Image
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9573
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby klonk on Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:59 pm

I suppose the best defense of "internal" is that some practices called that have benefits. Are a thousand days of internal gongfu (old meaning, man work, meaning you work and thus you develop) better than a thousand days of external? Unfortunately, most people discussing the topic on the Internet have neither, so let's just leave this old discussion where it is. You are good at what you practice daily.

Of course, if you daily practice something utterly useless, even two thousand days will not help you.

EDIT: Oops wrong tab. Meant to post this in another thread. Will copy it over but I will leave it here too.
Last edited by klonk on Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
User avatar
klonk
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6769
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:46 am

Re: Sanda: Kung Fu created a solution, then threw it away

Postby johnwang on Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:59 pm

klonk wrote: Are a thousand days of internal gongfu (old meaning, man work, meaning you work and thus you develop) better than a thousand days of external?

When you throw a punch, if your opponent blocks it, you can use your punching arm to pull his blocking arm, and then punch with another hand. If you just train this single technique 100 times daily for 1000 days, you should have repeated this over 100,000 time. You should have developed "punch, grab, and punch" as your "door guarding" skill.

CMA has the solution. But most people just don't spend their training time in those useful area.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9573
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests