Dynamic Punch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby Trick on Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:34 am

marvin8 wrote:
Trick wrote:
marvin8 wrote:In society, that is murder with the possibility of life in prison or death penalty.

[


So is this the new angle now why we should stop training in TMA, cause the forms has “killingl methods ? It’s getting weirder

It's the law. You can choose to follow it or not.
stop that TMA forms practice at once or I call the police 8-)
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby marvin8 on Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:37 am

Trick wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
Trick wrote:So is this the new angle now why we should stop training in TMA, cause the forms has “killingl methods ? It’s getting weirder

It's the law. You can choose to follow it or not.
stop that TMA forms practice at once or I call the police 8-)

Under the law, you can kill—just not someone who "doesn't even want to fight:"

johnwang wrote:
Quigga wrote:I don't really get the point of it. When would you use this?

If my enemy moved that far back, it would be clear he doesn't even want to fight...

In battle field, it doesn't matter your opponent wants to fight or not. You still want to kill him.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:42 am

johnwang wrote:You can have

- 1 step 1 punch.
- 1 step 2 punches.
- 1 step 3 punches.

You can also have many steps 1 punch. Your opponent is moving back. You move in to cover the distance. When you do that, you are using dynamic punch.

Here is an example of the "dynamic punch". I like this kind of mobility training.

Your thought?

Image


- 5 steps 3 punches
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby edededed on Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:49 pm

marvin8 wrote:
edededed wrote:Moving punch is a typical northern CMA method - xingyiquan and baguazhang come from the north, too. (Taijiquan is an atypical example I guess.)

It's a western method too called shifting (e,g, Fitzsimmons, Golovkin, Vitor Belfort vs Silva, etc.).


I think that the difference is:
A) Step, plant, and then strike
B) Step and strike simultaneously

Southern CMA and boxing emphasize A.
Northern CMA emphasizes B. In the West, fencing would be an example of this.

Of course it is not 100% one or the other.
But B tends to be misunderstood I think.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby Trick on Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:19 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Trick wrote:
marvin8 wrote:It's the law. You can choose to follow it or not.
stop that TMA forms practice at once or I call the police 8-)

Under the law, you can kill—just not someone who "doesn't even want to fight:"

johnwang wrote:
Quigga wrote:I don't really get the point of it. When would you use this?

If my enemy moved that far back, it would be clear he doesn't even want to fight...

In battle field, it doesn't matter your opponent wants to fight or not. You still want to kill him.

Traditional MA got to have “traditional” methods in there exercises, eye pokes, nut grabs, spirited battle field charge....etc(there’s of course more and more important stuff to focus while TMA practicing),however all practiced peacefully in today’s society, just like the regular punch and kick in MMMA(modern mixed martial arts) are at peace in society, but if misused just as unlawful as any TMA would be if misused.......
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby marvin8 on Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:42 am

edededed wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
edededed wrote:Moving punch is a typical northern CMA method - xingyiquan and baguazhang come from the north, too. (Taijiquan is an atypical example I guess.)

It's a western method too called shifting (e,g, Fitzsimmons, Golovkin, Vitor Belfort vs Silva, etc.).


I think that the difference is:
A) Step, plant, and then strike
B) Step and strike simultaneously

Southern CMA and boxing emphasize A.
Northern CMA emphasizes B. In the West, fencing would be an example of this.

Of course it is not 100% one or the other.
But B tends to be misunderstood I think.

I think that the difference is:
A) Strike first, then step
B) Step and strike simultaneously

The OP clip shows B) step and coordinate jab with lead foot landing (one or more steps per strike). It is the same method used in WMA for the step jab. When shifting however, WMA tends to throw the rear hand (for more power), then steps.

The OP clips looks more like chasing someone on a battlefield, feet in front of him, with a weapon in the lead hand. If you chase someone feet in front of you, there is enough time for them to react by moving off line.

In the Belfort video (latter), he starts throwing multiple punches (rear and lead hand) within striking range first, then steps. This is faster than throwing only the lead hand with each step, as in the OP.

Image

Image
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby zrm on Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:46 pm

marvin8 wrote:
zrm wrote:Disengaging by running away and then re-engaging from a distance or hitting people whilst running past them with momentum behind you is something that is not studied enough in my opinion. Especially when the situation is not restricted to 1 on 1 fight and situation involves groups of people on separate sides.

Yielding, leading an opponent into emptiness, then issuing from punching range is generally taught.

Mayweather Jr. lures (yin) by leaning forward, listens (ting), yields, then as opponent strikes (timing) he pivots/controls (na) and hits/issue (fa):



I didn't mean yielding, I meant literally running away and re-engaging.

Kabaddi exhibits a lot of these tactics. To me this game always looked like a group of unarmed people trying to tackle a person armed with a knife.

Image
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby marvin8 on Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:41 am

zrm wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
zrm wrote:Disengaging by running away and then re-engaging from a distance or hitting people whilst running past them with momentum behind you is something that is not studied enough in my opinion. Especially when the situation is not restricted to 1 on 1 fight and situation involves groups of people on separate sides.

Yielding, leading an opponent into emptiness, then issuing from punching range is generally taught.

Mayweather Jr. lures (yin) by leaning forward, listens (ting), yields, then as opponent strikes (timing) he pivots/controls (na) and hits/issue (fa):



I didn't mean yielding, I meant literally running away and re-engaging.

Kabaddi exhibits a lot of these tactics. To me this game always looked like a group of unarmed people trying to tackle a person armed with a knife.

https://chumley.barstoolsports.com/wp-c ... /giphy.gif

What is the benefit of "literally running away and re-engaging?"

You should be close enough to re-engage (change directions) and hit when the opponent is out of position.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby johnwang on Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:38 pm

In my yesterday class, we trained this footwork 20 times. In the beginning, we started from only 10 feet distance. It was just slow forward steps. After 20 reps, we had reached to the running speed. We could reached to maximum 18 feet distance.

I find some advantages for this kind of training:

- Since the leading stiff arm is similar to the rhino guard, you can use it to destroy your opponent's defense.
- You will develop courage and feel comfortable to attack your opponent from a farther distance.
- By adding a small jump, this footwork can cover more distance (I really like that small jump).

I want to try to repeat this footwork 100 times daily for a month and see what benefit that I can get. May be I finally have found some MA training that can replace my 3 miles running.

Image
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby Overlord on Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:17 pm

johnwang wrote:In my yesterday class, we trained this footwork 20 times. In the beginning, we started from only 10 feet distance. It was just slow forward steps. After 20 reps, we had reached to the running speed. We could reached to maximum 18 feet distance.

I find some advantages for this kind of training:

- Since the leading stiff arm is similar to the rhino guard, you can use it to destroy your opponent's defense.
- You will develop courage and feel comfortable to attack your opponent from a farther distance.
- By adding a small jump, this footwork can cover more distance (I really like that small jump).

I want to try to repeat this footwork 100 times daily for a month and see what benefit that I can get. May be I finally have found some MA training that can replace my 3 miles running.

Image



Hi John,
Regarding to CMA jargon, there is a term called 腰馬合一,what is your take on that and do you think there is any relevance to punches ?
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby johnwang on Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:29 pm

Overlord wrote:Hi John,
Regarding to CMA jargon, there is a term called 腰馬合一,what is your take on that and do you think there is any relevance to punches ?
Over

IMO, when you do

- static punch, you should coordinate your punch with your back leg (bend -> straight).
- dynamic punch, you should coordinate your punch with your front foot landing.

But when you extend your punching arm in front of your opponent's face as "rhino guard", since you are not punching, it doesn't have to coordinate with either your front foot, or your back foot.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby zrm on Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:52 pm

marvin8 wrote:What is the benefit of "literally running away and re-engaging?"

You should be close enough to re-engage (change directions) and hit when the opponent is out of position.


Admittedly it is not that useful in a 1 on 1 situation or in a ring where you don't have that much room to move.

1) If you hit somebody while moving from a distance you have a lot of momentum. The most obvious time to do this is the initial engagement. Running away lets you reinitialise.
2) The dynamic punch skill is punching with momentum without sacrificing balance (balfort is forward heavy at the start of his counter attack and was susceptible to take down)
3) In a multiple opponent situation if you have people on all sides its best to run away so they chase you. As soon as you retreat most people will chase directly at you in a straight line, usually at different speeds. This causes the group of attackers to bunch together. Most of the time they also end up in a straight line, one behind the other. If you learn how to hit while retreating even better. If they are chasing after you can use their own forward momentum against them.



4) If your opponent is dealing with one of your allies you can catch them by surprise (like in the kabaddi example above). More often than not these kind of sucker punches are one hit knockouts.

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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby marvin8 on Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:32 pm

zrm wrote:
marvin8 wrote:What is the benefit of "literally running away and re-engaging?"

You should be close enough to re-engage (change directions) and hit when the opponent is out of position.


Admittedly it is not that useful in a 1 on 1 situation or in a ring where you don't have that much room to move.

1) If you hit somebody while moving from a distance you have a lot of momentum. The most obvious time to do this is the initial engagement.

CMA is known for it's fajin, requiring less momentum to generate power. The more windup one needs to generate power, the more vulnerable to a counter.

A matador with any skill should be able to defend themselves against a bull that mainly relies on momentum, same with a MAist. With all the theory (talk) and training of energy and stepping, CMAists should be able to handle incoming momentum from feet away.

Image

zrm wrote:Running away lets you reinitialise.

However, requiring distance to build momentum can be countered.

zrm wrote:3) In a multiple opponent situation if you have people on all sides its best to run away so they chase you. As soon as you retreat most people will chase directly at you in a straight line, usually at different speeds. This causes the group of attackers to bunch together. Most of the time they also end up in a straight line, one behind the other. If you learn how to hit while retreating even better. If they are chasing after you can use their own forward momentum against them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKMOh5YqAKQ

Exactly, position yourself (e.g., sidestep) and counter those chasing you by "using their own forward momentum against them."

zrm wrote:4) If your opponent is dealing with one of your allies you can catch them by surprise (like in the kabaddi example above).

Right. In your clip, one red player causes white to fall by yielding while another red player tags white from an angle.

zrm wrote:More often than not these kind of sucker punches are one hit knockouts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6NtqG6OycE

There are more KOs using setup skills (e.g., deception, distance control, etc.), than just relying on momentum.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby marvin8 on Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:33 pm

johnwang wrote:
Overlord wrote:Hi John,
Regarding to CMA jargon, there is a term called 腰馬合一,what is your take on that and do you think there is any relevance to punches ?
Over

IMO, when you do

- static punch, you should coordinate your punch with your back leg (bend -> straight).

To generate power, you should push off your rear foot and shift your weight from the back foot to the front foot by opening/closing the kuas, not "bend -> straight your back leg." More power is generated from the rear hand. Lifting the rear heel allows more rotation/torque creating more power.

johnwang wrote:- dynamic punch, you should coordinate your punch with your front foot landing.

If your opponent is feet away, you shouldn't start punching until you are in punching range.

johnwang wrote:But when you extend your punching arm in front of your opponent's face as "rhino guard", since you are not punching, it doesn't have to coordinate with either your front foot, or your back foot.

https://i.postimg.cc/NMCWnrg6/jab.jpg

But, you are out of alignment by not following six harmonies. Here he runs while coordinating hand and foot, then punches with rear hand when in punching range:

zrm wrote:
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby zrm on Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:46 am

@marvin8

Yes I agree. I'm not denying any of that. I'm just saying these skills are also present in CMA and are also useful. Stepping through to punch from a distance is common practice in Xing Yi. I've got plenty of people with that sparring because they are not used to people stepping all the way through with their rear hand and changing from orthodox to southpaw while doing so. People assume they are outside of striking distance. You can also add a rear leg skip to get extra reach. The skip is useful for knees and I think Muay Thai does that. Can they counter? Yes. Do you expecting them to? Also yes.

The skill that the matador uses is the ideal. When there is more than one person attacking its hard to do that and avoid both at the same time. If you can pass through an opponent and there is nobody else behind them, that's great.

If you think of strategy what I am saying sometimes its better to skirmish than to confront head on.

There was a whole subset in Chinese Martial Art culture that could be summarised as "Burglar Fu". Essentially old school parkour. Dong Hai Chuan was supposedly known for it but didn't like to teach it and Sun Lu Tang was known for his practice of running up walls.

In Ziranmen there is a famous story about Du Xin Wu being challenged by Liu Bai Chuan. Liu was famous for his sanda. He had beaten up a bunch of people and apparently had a vicious kick. Du was famous for evasion. When Liu challenged Du, Du ran up the wall and into the rafters. Liu said come back down here and fight! Du said, why don't you come up here and fight? In the end they considered it a draw. Afterwards they became friends and would train together.
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