Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

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Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:12 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxsbDDrredI
It's not perfect, but he's using what he trained instead of training empty forms and then fighting with Sanda.
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Re: Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

Postby johnwang on Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:06 pm

One major concern about the WC system is the missing of fast footwork training.

Image
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Re: Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

Postby windwalker on Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:58 pm

johnwang wrote:One major concern about the WC system is the missing of fast footwork training.


Is it missing, or by design?

History of each style comes into play when talking about perceived limitations
How close practitioners of the style adhere to the style in performance giving the expected flavor of the style.
Depends on the person's skill, understanding, maybe more importantly experience within the context it's used in.

How should one judge it?

By the usage according to style, or by performance regardless of style?

If by performance, does style matter ?
If by style, does performance matter ?

A noted problem for CMA.

What is practiced does not seem carry over to real world usage still retaining the flavor
regardless of out come..

A distinct departure from CMA's historical past, where Practitioners were noted on usage of their proclaimed style.

Different schools have different principles, and they all strive to uphold their principles. Therefore, the principles cannot be lost. If lost, the measures (of a technique) will be in confusion. If one is able to lay his foundation on the principles so as to push forward till the end (i.e. persistent all through), then that is the perfect way. There is a certain principle behind the fact that rulers can be used to draw squares and compasses can be used to draw circles.

https://www.baihepai.com/pak-hok-pai-li ... -siu-jong/
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

Postby GrahamB on Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:20 am

I've seen Ip man 4 - you can't tell me there's anything missing from Wing Chun - it's perfect!
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Re: Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

Postby Bao on Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:18 am

Interesting vid. The WC guy was IMO the better fighter right from the start, though his punches felt a bit weak. Thought the Muay Thai dude was only "so so". Good Thai boxers are far more aggressive.

What the WC guy did excellent was to just run in and close the gap, too close for the Thai guy so he could hardly utilise any kicks at all. The WC dude seemed to know exactly what to do. Indeed very interesting.

johnwang wrote:One major concern about the WC system is the missing of fast footwork training.


In real fighting people tend to be quite stationary and not run around a lot. Real fighting, not talking about sports. If you do sports you should train footwork in the very same format you compete in. Form running doesn't really help. IMHO.
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Re: Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:10 am

johnwang wrote:One major concern about the WC system is the missing of fast footwork training.

Image

I think that this footwork is very practical in swordsmanship, but suicidal in unarmed combat. The reason is because you aren't threatening them with something as you are stepping, so nothing is stopping them from punching you in the face. The same goes for jumping. Not a fan at all.
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Re: Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:14 am

windwalker wrote:
johnwang wrote:One major concern about the WC system is the missing of fast footwork training.


Is it missing, or by design?

History of each style comes into play when talking about perceived limitations
How close practitioners of the style adhere to the style in performance giving the expected flavor of the style.
Depends on the person's skill, understanding, maybe more importantly experience within the context it's used in.

How should one judge it?

By the usage according to style, or by performance regardless of style?

If by performance, does style matter ?
If by style, does performance matter ?

A noted problem for CMA.

What is practiced does not seem carry over to real world usage still retaining the flavor
regardless of out come..

A distinct departure from CMA's historical past, where Practitioners were noted on usage of their proclaimed style.

Different schools have different principles, and they all strive to uphold their principles. Therefore, the principles cannot be lost. If lost, the measures (of a technique) will be in confusion. If one is able to lay his foundation on the principles so as to push forward till the end (i.e. persistent all through), then that is the perfect way. There is a certain principle behind the fact that rulers can be used to draw squares and compasses can be used to draw circles.

https://www.baihepai.com/pak-hok-pai-li ... -siu-jong/

I agree. The reason that I posted this clip isn't because it features the best CMA I've ever seen, but because this guy is using the principles and the techniques of his system as it was intended and doing so under pressure. I would caution him to perhaps tuck his chin in, but I liked what I saw. I hope that he would continue to refine his craft if he went up against better opponents.
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Re: Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:16 am

Bao wrote:Interesting vid. The WC guy was IMO the better fighter right from the start, though his punches felt a bit weak. Thought the Muay Thai dude was only "so so". Good Thai boxers are far more aggressive.

What the WC guy did excellent was to just run in and close the gap, too close for the Thai guy so he could hardly utilise any kicks at all. The WC dude seemed to know exactly what to do. Indeed very interesting.

johnwang wrote:One major concern about the WC system is the missing of fast footwork training.


In real fighting people tend to be quite stationary and not run around a lot. Real fighting, not talking about sports. If you do sports you should train footwork in the very same format you compete in. Form running doesn't really help. IMHO.

I think that most of these punches were not intended to knock out his opponent, but rather to overwhelm him, which he was quite successful at. Different arts use different techniques and strategies. There were a few powerful strikes in there, including a very good uppercut.
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Re: Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:18 am

GrahamB wrote:I've seen Ip man 4 - you can't tell me there's anything missing from Wing Chun - it's perfect!

This art wasn't a good fit for me, but if a practitioner learns it from a qualified teacher, trains hard and spars with people from other styles I fully believe in its effectiveness.
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Re: Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

Postby dspyrido on Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:55 pm

Having trained for several years in both WC and MT I can safely say they have both great qualities.

With WC IRL I have knocked out guys with a tap using a straight. The surprise factor just caught them out. But put gloves on and it all gets nerfed. Stepping is also crap unless the angled stance is adopted and springing on the toes. That said WC sticking legs and short ranged kicks can complement MT's longer kicking.

Most know the benefits of MT so no need to go into it.

There's many pros and cons of both styles but I find there are parts that are great compliments.
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Re: Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:52 pm

dspyrido wrote:Having trained for several years in both WC and MT I can safely say they have both great qualities.

With WC IRL I have knocked out guys with a tap using a straight. The surprise factor just caught them out. But put gloves on and it all gets nerfed. Stepping is also crap unless the angled stance is adopted and springing on the toes. That said WC sticking legs and short ranged kicks can complement MT's longer kicking.

Most know the benefits of MT so no need to go into it.

There's many pros and cons of both styles but I find there are parts that are great compliments.

I feel like the whole not being able to use your art because of gloves thing should have gone away when MMA gloves were invented. I can trap with boxing gloves, but most of these are circular techniques which are less likely to get hung up, but if it doesn't work with MMA gloves then I'm not sure if it would ever work, frankly. I feel like the gentleman in the video could have done some side steps to come at his opponent from different angles. I feel like I've seen that in WC. I only learned the first two forms and did a lot of drilling, but preferred to use other things when it came to sparring. It was very interesting that he combined the knee strikes from MT with his WC - elbows too possibly, but it seems like they were illegal.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

Postby GrandUltimate on Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:04 pm

johnwang wrote:One major concern about the WC system is the missing of fast footwork training.

Image


In terms of the forms, that kind of fast type footwork is actually in the last form in Yip Man lineages, the baat jaam dao. The advancing and retreating should ideally be like the speed of running, while also using the knives. This also includes stepping in at angles and movement like quarter turns.

That said, a lot of people don't get to the baat jaam dao, so they may end up screwed if they don't pick up this footwork from drills or something else.
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Re: Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

Postby johnwang on Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:03 pm

GrandUltimate wrote:In terms of the forms, that kind of fast type footwork is actually in the last form in Yip Man lineages, the baat jaam dao. The advancing and retreating should ideally be like the speed of running, while also using the knives. This also includes stepping in at angles and movement like quarter turns.

That said, a lot of people don't get to the baat jaam dao, so they may end up screwed if they don't pick up this footwork from drills or something else.

Do you think it may be too later to train footwork until the weapon training stage?
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Re: Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

Postby GrandUltimate on Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:51 am

johnwang wrote:Do you think it may be too later to train footwork until the weapon training stage?


Oh absolutely, though this type of footwork should be introduced and trained long before the baat jaam dao. The BJD is just an example of it in the Wing Chun forms. Well, kind of, most people seem to perform the form pretty slow on youtube.
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Re: Yongchunquan - 咏春拳

Postby dspyrido on Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:37 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:I feel like the whole not being able to use your art because of gloves thing should have gone away when MMA gloves were invented. I can trap with boxing gloves, but most of these are circular techniques which are less likely to get hung up, but if it doesn't work with MMA gloves then I'm not sure if it would ever work, frankly. I feel like the gentleman in the video could have done some side steps to come at his opponent from different angles. I feel like I've seen that in WC. I only learned the first two forms and did a lot of drilling, but preferred to use other things when it came to sparring. It was very interesting that he combined the knee strikes from MT with his WC - elbows too possibly, but it seems like they were illegal.


The following all really relates to sports fighting:

WC needs the so called advanced stuff to have a hope against MT. Chum kiu & biu tze when broken out into techniques (ie not forms) & drilled teach angling & basic evasion. Also elbows & knees. Butterfly knives & pole teach handling heavier weight, basic level change and rudimentary grips. Foot work is also trained but not great. Sticking legs makes a big difference for kicking.

All this needs a good physically focused individual who is drilled by a proper coach with supporting sparring partners.

With all this WC has a punchers chance against MT but MT still had superior foot work, better ranged methods & great arcing hits. For infighting WC might have an edge.

Now the real problem.

A good MT stable can pump out a decent fighter in a year. Plus there's loads of schools around.

Most WC schools have gone "internal" or other nonsense and would stretch out learning over decades. Most don't spar. Most don't get in a ring. Most don't even have a solid cardio or fitness ethic. Result is a good fit prospect fighter won't even try it out.


Note this is all about WC vs MT - not against well trained cross skilled mma'ers but these people will give any single dimensional stylist trouble under mma rules including boxers, kickboxers, MT, wrestling, bjj, karate etc. OTOH put an mma'er to fight under the more specific rules and they will struggle against a top specialist.
Last edited by dspyrido on Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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