Punch retraction

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Punch retraction

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:33 pm

As you contract your arm faster than the punch you should kiai loudly and shake violently
Oh sorry I was thinking of no contact karate in the 70's
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Bob on Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:45 pm

Does anyone ever think about what you do with you with the other arm? The waist?
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:07 pm

Quigga wrote:If force moves through the body like a whip, then by logical extension the retraction should always be faster.

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Re: Punch retraction

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:26 pm

In many northern styles, the two arms are considered as one (connected through the back or 'tongbei'), and there's a yin/yang relationship between them.

So when one arm is retracted, the other arm should extend with equal speed and power. This means that by retracing a punch quickly, you are also adding more speed and power to the arm that is going out.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:41 pm

Most punches in one minute - Guinness World Records:

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Re: Punch retraction

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:19 pm

As my teacher said to jimmy caruthers world boxing champ
Jimmy was telling him that he threw the most punches ever in a round of boxing
I think it was more than two hundred
Eric said
You must not have had much power Jim
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby dspyrido on Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:28 pm

Yeung wrote:Most punches in one minute - Guinness World Records:



It's interesting a kick boxer is doing WC chain punching.



And yet I can't find any real fights he's done so ... who cares.

Anyway the reason why the arm retracts is to:

1. Get a little distance to set up the next punch
2. Block or potentially block an opponents attack
3. It's grabbed onto something and is pulling it in

If a punch is not powerful enough and a retracting arm motion is required to somehow propel it then there is a lack of body mechanics going on.
Last edited by dspyrido on Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Bhassler on Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:46 pm

dspyrido wrote:Anyway the reason why the arm retracts is to:

1. Get a little distance to set up the next punch
2. Block or potentially block an opponents attack
3. It's grabbed onto something and is pulling it in


It may also be a training artifact. The body has numerous mechanisms to protect itself from flailing about and causing injury. The muscles used to retract a punch are the same ones used to act as brakes if the punch misses-- and the nervous system doesn't know that a punch is a punch, it just knows that the arm is being thrown out quickly and it better be able to deal with the consequences of that.

By developing a strong, explosive, and efficient retraction, you're also improving the ability to safely throw the limb out there in the first place.

Or you could do something wacky, like using some kind of trained body motion to project force to the limbs without relying upon local musculature in a way that needs oppositional control (i.e. retraction) to prevent injury, but I digress...
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby .Q. on Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:14 pm

Yeung wrote:
.Q. wrote:Isn't that a common boxing quote?


You mean something like the following:


Nah, nothing so fancy. It's just a thing I've heard from a couple boxing coaches when hitting heavy bags. I don't recall for sure but I think the claim was that it makes your punch sharper. It's definitely a common thing in boxing. I don't do it since Xingyi prefers to do penetrating style strikes and not come back empty handed.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby suckinlhbf on Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:42 pm

I heard from a master of Luhebafa and Xiajia 俠家

Heard him say it but too bad not in an environment that I could ask further. I heard the same saying from a few masters when I was a kid. I though it was non-sense and they were BSing me. Even I knew to ask I would get nothing by that time. A student of Wang (YiQuan) said the same. He went further that it would hurt much more than a punch as the power get in and suddenly reverse.
My understanding is it triggers the protection mechanism of our own body to take the punch but the punch is gone suddenly so we hurt outself by our own contraction. The damage is deep in the body and hard to heal. And the injury could be somewhere else than the place of contact. It sounds ridiculous but this situation does happen.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Trick on Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:47 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:
Quigga wrote:If force moves through the body like a whip, then by logical extension the retraction should always be faster.

Wouldn’t that be the bullwhip cracking way.....actually that’s kind of what going on when one fali’ing or Kime’ing(as in karate)..the sudden stop of the speeding fist flunged out is kind of an retraction ...if this is perfectly mastered ones punches does not need to be as battering rams crushing throu an opponent.


Sudden stop? But the whip continues. Actually, even if it's brought back in the opposite direction, it still continues before it changes its direction.

I prefer the battering ram.

Yes with such a punch the physical hit don’t need to go particularly deep, if well mastered it may just touch the surface hit. The shock energy is what continues forward as an “battering ram”
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Trick on Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:48 am

Bob wrote:Does anyone ever think about what you do with you with the other arm? The waist?

In solo(forms’n similar) practice awareness of and by the whole body is practiced, that comes as second nature when applied otherwise n daily life or combat situations......even without any specific training the two arms work in union..practice sharpens what is inborn
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Trick on Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:51 am

wayne hansen wrote:As my teacher said to jimmy caruthers world boxing champ
Jimmy was telling him that he threw the most punches ever in a round of boxing
I think it was more than two hundred
Eric said
You must not have had much power Jim
who of them was the world champ
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:56 am

suckinlhbf wrote:
I heard from a master of Luhebafa and Xiajia 俠家

Heard him say it but too bad not in an environment that I could ask further. I heard the same saying from a few masters when I was a kid. I though it was non-sense and they were BSing me. Even I knew to ask I would get nothing by that time. A student of Wang (YiQuan) said the same. He went further that it would hurt much more than a punch as the power get in and suddenly reverse.
My understanding is it triggers the protection mechanism of our own body to take the punch but the punch is gone suddenly so we hurt outself by our own contraction. The damage is deep in the body and hard to heal. And the injury could be somewhere else than the place of contact. It sounds ridiculous but this situation does happen.


Thank you for confirming the saying but instead of answering the question you move to the problem of the shockwaves resulted from braking a very heavy strike or when you hit something very hard or crashing with another incoming strike, etc. Most noticeable is when you deliver a strike you get a shock in the back of the head, etc. This is why concentric muscle contraction of a strike is not encouraged in martial arts that does not use brute force. Yiquan is closely related to Xingyiquan and Luhebafa, and there might be a quote from Wang's writing.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby suckinlhbf on Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:31 am

instead of answering the question you move to the problem of the shockwaves

Sorry. My thought didn't come in the right way.

The saying is in the stretch-recoil cycle. It permeates in most of the styles like Silk reeling jin in Taichi, 5 element fists in Xingyi, Shi li in Yiquan, Grind the bean curd in WingChun, Move the bridge in HungKuen......etc. It is not the shockwaves can do, and the shockwaves can cause huge problems to the body if execute using upper body.
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