Punch retraction

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Punch retraction

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:00 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:
red or octagonal

If I understand it correctly, "red" is color and "octagonal" is a shape. Is a stop sign color or shape? The stop sign is to let somebody know to stop. As long as it serves the purpose, it works. Red in color is so happened to be the universal color to use so people know. The shape may not be octagonal at the traffic light. I think to better serve the purpose is the goal.


Exactly, it's an invalid question.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby suckinlhbf on Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:11 pm

Exactly, it's an invalid question.

Force and Momentum can be mutually exclusive and/or mutually inclusive. It depends on who to talk to and how to make use of.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:54 am

Kinetic chain theory:

Image
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:04 am

suckinlhbf wrote:
I saw most of people in the younger generation do the first one, and the older guys do the second. Maybe the old guy cannot hold on for long and I prefer to do the second one.

Thank you for your observations which confirmed the preservation of eccentric muscle strength in the elderly.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:09 am

The preservation of eccentric strength in older adults is a well-established phenomenon, occurring indiscriminately across different muscle groups, independent of age-related architectural changes in muscle structure and velocity of movement.
Author: Marc Roig, Donna L. MacIntyre, Donna L. MacIntyre, Janice J. Eng, Janice J. Eng, Marco V. Narici, Co...
Cited by: 125
Publish Year: 2010
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:26 am

The Xingyi Zuanquan can be repetitive cycles of stretch-recoil-stretch:
Image
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:19 pm

Back to the whip cracking
Whip cracking is circular like internal arts
It does not rely on the retraction of the other arm
Retraction is a piston type system where it is recognised a rotary motor is superior in function mechanics and speed
This is the internal it is how western boxing works and is the reason for the speed bag
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:55 am

There are differences between whip cracks and speed bag, the following is a video of the world record of basketball bounces:

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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:59 am

Sorry, here is one with speedball:

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Re: Punch retraction

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:48 pm

I wasn’t saying they are the same thing just that they sent pistons
Both are circular ways of moving where each movement generates the next
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:36 pm

An example of circular ways of moving from:
六合八法拳的三盤推手 Liuhebafa's "3 Division Pushhands"
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby marvin8 on Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:36 pm

Yeung wrote:An example of circular ways of moving from:
六合八法拳的三盤推手 Liuhebafa's "3 Division Pushhands"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXeoIXoLjfU

The guy above, on the right yields by rotating (circular ways) his waist and shoulders while shifting his weight to the back foot. Then, rotates, transfers weight to the front foot and issues/punches.

Similar to this boxer:

Image

Yeung wrote:The Xingyi Zuanquan can be repetitive cycles of stretch-recoil-stretch:

Image

In that zuan quan, there is less rotation and weight transfer, relying more on stepping and chambering the opposite hand or trapping to generate power.

A similar zuan quan:

Image
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby marvin8 on Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:57 pm

Yeung wrote:There was the saying of “punch retraction should be faster than the punch itself”, which I heard from a master of Luhebafa and Xiajia 俠家 some years ago. And it came to my mind as I am developing the stretch-recoil cycle in martial arts. Has any one heard of similar saying or published reference?

The following published study shows it's not a matter of "fast punch retraction," but a contraction-relaxation contraction cycle (upon contact) that creates the most speed and striking power. Fighters who generate the most force are ones who have a high rate of contraction AND a high rate of relaxation. “The rate of muscle contraction, and the rate of relaxation, determines the strike speed and impact force.”

Excerpts from "EVIDENCE OF A DOUBLE PEAK IN MUSCLE ACTIVATION TO ENHANCE STRIKE SPEED AND FORCE: AN EXAMPLE WITH ELITE MIXED MARTIAL ARTS FIGHTERS:"

STUART M. MCGILL, JON D. CHAIMBERG, DAVID M. FROST, AND CHAD M.J. FENWICK on February 2010 wrote:ABSTRACT

... The main issue addressed here is the paradox of muscle contraction to optimize speed and strike force. When muscle contracts, it increases in both force and stiffness. Force creates faster movement, but the corresponding stiffness slows the change of muscle shape and joint velocity. The purpose of this study was to investigate how this speed strength is accomplished. Five elite mixed martial arts athletes were recruited given that they must create high strike force very quickly. Muscle activation using electromyography and 3-dimensional spine motion was measured. A variety of strikes were performed. Many of the strikes intend to create fast motion and finish with a very large striking force, demonstrating a ‘‘double peak’’ of muscle activity. ...

DISCUSSION

... Optimizing strike force and reducing the time taken for the hand or foot to reach the opponent requires paradoxical muscle variables. On one hand, muscle force propels the hand or foot, yet on the other, corresponding muscle stiffness slows the motion, suggesting that rapid relaxation may be helpful. Furthermore, upon contact, increasing the effective mass with muscle stiffness enhances the strike force. This appears to be accomplished by elite MMA athletes by producing a ‘‘double pulse’’ in some of their muscles. In this way, elite strike performance may be determined by a contraction-relaxation contraction cycle. This suggests it may be fruitful to train rapid rate of relaxation together with rapid rate of contraction to enhance this form of speed strength.

PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS

Evidence of contraction-relaxation-contraction pulses to achieve speed and strike force suggests that it may be helpful to train both rate of activation and rate of muscle relaxation. Some coaches purposefully attempt to train the pulses by beginning the movements and muscle activation patterns at a slow rate and then speeding up the technique. Others use pulsing drills that we are currently evaluating.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb8ShtGSLHk
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:41 am

Singapore Wing Chun Academy - Single Hand Chi Sao with Sifu Johnny:

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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Bhassler on Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:18 am

LaoDan wrote:
Bhassler wrote:It may also be a training artifact. The body has numerous mechanisms to protect itself from flailing about and causing injury. The muscles used to retract a punch are the same ones used to act as brakes if the punch misses-- and the nervous system doesn't know that a punch is a punch, it just knows that the arm is being thrown out quickly and it better be able to deal with the consequences of that.

By developing a strong, explosive, and efficient retraction, you're also improving the ability to safely throw the limb out there in the first place.

Or you could do something wacky, like using some kind of trained body motion to project force to the limbs without relying upon local musculature in a way that needs oppositional control (i.e. retraction) to prevent injury, but I digress...

Sorry that this is off the topic of punch retraction, but the above quote brought up the following for me.

I have been wondering about human evolutionary muscle development and the implications for martial arts (especially TJQ), but there does not seem to be clear research evidence for many of the questions that have come up for me when looking into this topic. Does anyone know of scientific studies that examine the “protective” or “inhibitory” mechanisms thought to exist to protect humans from muscle usage damage?

It certainly seems like humans have difficulty using full strength and power. This is brought up anecdotally with the stories of emergency use of strength to lift a car off of a child, or the greater muscle activation when under a strong electric shock, or the presumed greater strength per body mass shown by chimps and other great apes, etc. for example. But why would we so inhibit ourselves when the other great apes (e.g., chimps) seem to have more capability to be “full on” when exerting their strength.

Here are some unconfirmed speculations: Human children are closer to the “full on” approach that other great apes use, but we learn fine control and precision as we develop (this aids in tool use, the ability to use precise and finely graded movements, etc.). This development includes a greater percentage of slow-twitch fiber content in humans than in other great apes. Is the greater percentage of slow-twitch muscle somehow inhibiting the full usage of the fast-twitch muscles? It also seem that humans recruit the smaller and more efficient slow-twitch muscles for tasks, prior to recruiting the larger fast-twitch muscle fiber bundles when the smaller muscle groups are not sufficient for the task. Could this progressive recruitment of muscles contribute the seeming lack of ability for humans to utilize more of their muscle power during normal activities? Does the slow-twitch fiber content aid in fine and precision control of our muscles, but at the expense of the explosive power that can be generated by fast-twitch muscle fibers? Adding muscle mass (bulking up) appears to primarily involve increasing the fast-twitch muscles, but at the expense of tiring quicker (the fast-twitch muscles are anaerobic and produce lactic acid as a byproduct...). Adding fast-twitch muscles may be good for increasing one’s power and explosiveness, but would not be good for a marathon runner, for example. There seems to be a trade off [note that sport fighting formats seem to favor fast-twitch power athletes who exert effort over relatively short bouts with breaks in between bouts in order to recover from the previous bout’s exertions and to be ready for the next round – the formats are generally not ones that favor those who possess greater endurance instead of power].

TJQ appears to primarily train the slow-twitch muscles, but these develop much slower than muscle mass from bulking up one’s fast-twitch musculature. Since humans have evolved to posses a higher slow-twitch muscle content than other great apes, the efficiency and endurance provided by this difference can be speculatively explained as being beneficial for humans (being able to tire a prey that has greater burst speed than we do and can easily sprint away from a human, but tires more over time when continuously being pursued). But why inhibit whatever power we still retain from the explosive fast-twitch muscles? Can athletes train to overcome any apparent “inhibitory” mechanisms so that they can strike with more power? Are the mechanics of a jab “unnatural” for humans (and other great apes), and therefore more prone to injury consequentially requiring measures to prevent injury, than striking with “flailing” arms would be? Are TJQ and other martial arts that refer to tendon and ligament strength, rather than the muscles, developing power differently than the typical fast-twitch power and explosiveness, but still is capable of producing power by some other mechanism? If so, then what is that mechanism? Does it have something to do with the slow-twitch muscles? If so, then how?

I do not know. There are so many questions that I have not yet found clear answers for.


Primates have different muscle attachments and much greater leverage than humans. That's going to be a much bigger factor than muscle-fiber type.

Strength is a factor of the number and thickness of muscle fibers, but also one's ability to recruit muscle fibers effectively. A muscle fiber is either all on or all off-- if you want to do an action with less force, you use less muscle fibers. So there's a real neurological component to strength. I would suggest that most of taiji's strength comes from more efficient neurological engagement and simple Newtonian mechanics. Lots of people talk about tensegrity structures, but I think looking at the mechanics of cranes (like construction cranes, not birds) is more useful.

You might also look into the Golgi Tendon reflex if you want to start down the rabbit hole of muscle inhibition.

I don't have any grand theories for you, but those are some areas of research that I found interesting.
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