Punch retraction

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Punch retraction

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:53 am

My first teacher in 1973 was a osteopath/chiropractor and acupuncturist
He had a 4 the dan in karate and masters certificate in tang shou Tao
He had also studied yoga and had been a power lifter
Back then he told me speed depends on how quickly you could fire your muscle fibres and strength on how many you could engage at one time
All our training revolved around those principles
Most things I find people see as new learning today are things he told me back then
I was lucky enough to not only live with him but work as his assistant in his clinic
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3792
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Punch retraction

Postby johnwang on Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:56 am

Yeung wrote:Singapore Wing Chun Academy - Single Hand Chi Sao with Sifu Johnny:


Why does one use right arm to deal with his opponent's left arm only? What happen to right arm deal with right arm training?
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9604
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Punch retraction

Postby LaoDan on Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:27 pm

Bhassler wrote:Primates have different muscle attachments and much greater leverage than humans. That's going to be a much bigger factor than muscle-fiber type.

Strength is a factor of the number and thickness of muscle fibers, but also one's ability to recruit muscle fibers effectively. A muscle fiber is either all on or all off-- if you want to do an action with less force, you use less muscle fibers. So there's a real neurological component to strength. I would suggest that most of taiji's strength comes from more efficient neurological engagement and simple Newtonian mechanics. Lots of people talk about tensegrity structures, but I think looking at the mechanics of cranes (like construction cranes, not birds) is more useful.

You might also look into the Golgi Tendon reflex if you want to start down the rabbit hole of muscle inhibition.

I don't have any grand theories for you, but those are some areas of research that I found interesting.

While there are differences in skeletal levers as well as muscle and tendon architecture, etc., the following study from 2017 indicates that the strength differences between chimps and humans (which may not be as large as once thought) may be due in large part to muscle fiber types (and not things like maximum shortening velocities or maximum isometric force). It also theorizes about possible evolutionary reasons for the differences.

https://www.pnas.org/content/114/28/7343

I do think that you are correct about the recruitment of muscle fibers since there seem to be more nerves per muscle mass (that probably control smaller muscle fiber bundles which would allow for more precise recruitment for more precise tasks) in humans than in chimps.

The rabbit hole does look like it could be rather deep (more research is needed to clarify the issues). Thanks for the reference that you linked to; I have not read it yet, but it does look interesting.
LaoDan
Huajing
 
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:54 am

wayne hansen wrote:My first teacher in 1973 was a osteopath/chiropractor and acupuncturist
He had a 4 the dan in karate and masters certificate in tang shou Tao
He had also studied yoga and had been a power lifter
Back then he told me speed depends on how quickly you could fire your muscle fibres and strength on how many you could engage at one time
All our training revolved around those principles
Most things I find people see as new learning today are things he told me back then
I was lucky enough to not only live with him but work as his assistant in his clinic


Maybe his study is based on the following study:

Orderly recruitment of muscle action potentials: motor unit threshold and EMG amplitude (CB Olson, DO Carpenter, E Henneman - Archives of Neurology, 1968)

The following studies are also relevant:

Contraction-relaxation cycle (Ebanhi and Endo 1968)

Utilization of stored elastic energy (Komi and Bosco 1978)

Stretch-shortening cycle (Norman and Komi 1979)

Plyometrics - First practiced by the dominant Eastern Bloc athletes of the 1970s, (Chu 1998)

Store and then issue (from Taijiquan classics, Hao 1881)

Lie Jin: Store and issue in short distance (Shen 1963)

Stretch-recoil cycle (RSF 2018)
Yeung
Wuji
 
Posts: 688
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Punch retraction

Postby Bao on Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:55 am

Maybe his study is based on the following study:


Maybe his knowledge was based one experience?
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7643
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:02 am

Experience is too subjective, so I prefer experiment which is something everyone can try. In simple terms, the recruitment of muscles can be demonstrated by the kinetic chain model or the 15 joints of the body from wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc., utilizing more joints or muscles will increase the intensity or strength of a strike. I think this will work with anyone who tried it, and from relaxation of the whole body to fully stretched the joints should feel the recoil effect of the strike. And the utilization of the recoil (stored elastic energy) is the concern of this post to retract a punch faster than sending out a punch without using stored elastic energy.
Yeung
Wuji
 
Posts: 688
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Punch retraction

Postby LaoDan on Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:14 pm

Yeung wrote:In simple terms, the recruitment of muscles can be demonstrated by the kinetic chain model or the 15 joints of the body from wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc., utilizing more joints or muscles will increase the intensity or strength of a strike.

I realize that TJQ uses rotation and extension for delivering strikes (power), but my understanding is that TJQ is not using a purely “kinetic chain” type of power generation. With alignment and structure comes what some have called “wave” power, which is the power transmission in the manner of the “Newton’s cradle” toy (transmitting through the structure from the reaction force into the ground, through the structure, and out of the striking surface):


Do you not see it this way? Do you think that TJQ utilizes primarily force propelled through the “kinetic chain” mechanism?
LaoDan
Huajing
 
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:41 pm

I am not sure what you mean by alignment, as it can be a straight line or a curve. In Taijiquan, there is the saying of "seeking straight from curves" as all the movements of the relevant joints are rotating curves. So, force should also transmitted through curves from wrist to ankle or from ankle to wrist. Most people cannot experience the transmission is because they contracted or locked a joint or joints along the path of transmission.
Yeung
Wuji
 
Posts: 688
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:45 pm

Seeking straight from curves (Qu Zhong Qiu Zhi 曲中求直), this idiom is from the writings of Wu Yuxiang 武禹襄(1813-1880) and Li Yiyu 李亦畬(1832-1892) in “WANG ZONGYUE’S TAIJI BOXING TREATISE” APPENDED WITH MY PREFACE & “FIVE-WORD FORMULA” [A manual handwritten by Li Yiyu, presented to his student, Hao He (Weizhen) – 1881]. Paul Brennan translated it as “within curving, seek to be straightening” and “seek straight within the curved”. One of the problems with Chinese character is that it can be singular or plural, and from the practice of Taijiquan the character Qu曲should be plural. It is the generation a straight line from many curves of body motions. The example of squeeze (Ji挤) is a good one in generating a powerful thrust (straight line of motion) from curved arms, curved cross back, cured spine, rotation of pelvis, etc.
Yeung
Wuji
 
Posts: 688
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Punch retraction

Postby marvin8 on Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:23 am

LaoDan wrote:
Yeung wrote:In simple terms, the recruitment of muscles can be demonstrated by the kinetic chain model or the 15 joints of the body from wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc., utilizing more joints or muscles will increase the intensity or strength of a strike.

I realize that TJQ uses rotation and extension for delivering strikes (power), but my understanding is that TJQ is not using a purely “kinetic chain” type of power generation. With alignment and structure comes what some have called “wave” power, which is the power transmission in the manner of the “Newton’s cradle” toy (transmitting through the structure from the reaction force into the ground, through the structure, and out of the striking surface):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LnbyjOyEQ8

Do you not see it this way? Do you think that TJQ utilizes primarily force propelled through the “kinetic chain” mechanism?

Not to say what TJQ uses for power generation. However, generating power through the kinetic chain includes alignment, structure and waves per this article.

marvin8 wrote:Excerpt from "A New Paradigm in Biomechanics: Fascia, Rotation, and Waves," https://www.just-fly-sports.com/biomech ... ion-waves/:
Kevin Foster on July 16, 2018 wrote:Neuro-fascial System

The role of fascia in movement has always been a highly debated and somewhat mysterious topic. Highly elastic in nature, and heavily integrated into the neural network of movement, the neuro-fascial system helps explain the importance of a proximal to distal activation sequence.

As our connecting piece of anatomy to the ground, our feet play a massive role in the facilitation of tension through the neuro-fascial system. Our feet have an astonishing number of afferent neural connections that reflexively communicate tension up these neuro-fascial pathways. How our foot strikes the ground therefore plays an important role in where the tension goes.

Rotational Dynamics in Arthro- and Osteo-kinematics

At the level of the joint there is no such thing as linear movement. There are muscles that pull on tendons that pull bones in arcs and circles. By understanding this, we can see linear motion as a finely choreographed sequence of arcs and rotation, that when pieced together create a straight line.

When looking at movements pieced together in this way, we can see the importance of rotation in the creation and transfer of energy in movement. An important concept from Adarian Barr’s work is the role of end range of rotational motion in timing and energy transfer.

As an example of this concept, look at how energy gets transferred through the kinetic chain in a baseball or javelin throw: Energy of internal rotation of the right side of the pelvis gets stopped and absorbed by the stiffness of the left hip (think about a bicyclist crashing into a curb and flying over the handle bars to help visualize this example). The linear and angular momentum of the body causes this energy to get transferred up the spine, where end range of thoracic extension and rotation acts as another “curb” that transfers energy to the scapula.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEFfsg8MYbY
Jan Zelezny is the epitome of these motions in action

The end range of scapular retraction and posterior tilt acts as another “curb” that forces gleno-humeral external rotation. When the shoulder hits its end range of external rotation, it acts as a “curb” for the transfer of energy into elbow extension, whose end range acts as a “curb” for gleno-humeral internal rotation and forearm pronation.

There are three key takeaways from this example.

First, as noted above, is that individually these motions all occur in arcs and rotations, but synergistically pull the baseball or javelin in a perfectly straight line.

Second, is that at these “curbs,” the mass of each lever gets progressively smaller, so the conservation of angular momentum plays a massive role in accelerating limbs to high speeds.

The third is that the end ranges of these joints act as a built in “timer” for movement. If you have adequate mobility, and the ability to stay relaxed, each joint will perform its actions when the force gets there.

Timing, Waves, and Elastic Energy

Muscles, tendons, and fascia are all intrinsically elastic. The stretching and contracting of these elastic tissues can be looked at as waves of tension. Remember back in physics class, how all waves followed a sine function when analyzed on a graph? The same concept can apply to stretching and contracting muscles/tendons/fascia.

Building on this concept, when two waves “collide” they can either be constructive or destructive. That is, they can either add together, or cancel each other out.

Whether they add together or cancel out is a function of timing.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BcPdMwHjGxJ/?utm_source=ig_embed
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2210
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Punch retraction

Postby LaoDan on Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:40 am

Let me try to explain in more detail. A kinetic chain type of action is like throwing a baseball where the legs start the action and then the torso twists and the arm swings and extends... There is a relatively large displacement of each successive body part from beginning through the follow-through. This is the mechanics that most fighters use for their strikes.

But a different power transmission mechanism that plays a part in TJQ (as I practice it) can instead be called “wave power” or a “pulse” (like a pinball machine’s bumpers). This can be along a straight line as in the Newton’s cradle toy, but it can also be transmitted through arced segments (as with billiard balls touching each other in an arced shape; or like through the human body). The pulse relies more on alignment of the different segments of the body rather than on displacement of different segments of the body. As long as one maintains proper alignment such that power transmission is not lost significantly at any of the joints or body parts that the force travels through, then power will be transmitted from the reaction force into the ground, through the body, and out for the strike (like one ball transmitting the force through other balls in the Newton’s cradle toy and sending that force out through the last ball in the sequence). This does not require a large displacement of the intervening balls in the Newton's cradle toy example, yet the force is still transmitted.

This pulse mechanism probably does not concern fighters who strike from non-contact since they are free to wind up and move the segments of the body needed to generate momentum. But those who practice from-contact striking (or push-hands) will probably realize the benefit of developing pulse power to strike or push an opponent. Let’s call this pulse “pengjin” and you may see what I am trying to get at.
LaoDan
Huajing
 
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

Re: Punch retraction

Postby suckinlhbf on Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:41 am

Let me try to explain in more detail. A kinetic chain type of action is like throwing a baseball where the legs start the action and then the torso twists and the arm swings and extends... There is a relatively large displacement of each successive body part from beginning through the follow-through. This is the mechanics that most fighters use for their strikes.

But a different power transmission mechanism that plays a part in TJQ (as I practice it) can instead be called “wave power” or a “pulse” (like a pinball machine’s bumpers). This can be along a straight line as in the Newton’s cradle toy, but it can also be transmitted through arced segments (as with billiard balls touching each other in an arced shape; or like through the human body). The pulse relies more on alignment of the different segments of the body rather than on displacement of different segments of the body. As long as one maintains proper alignment such that power transmission is not lost significantly at any of the joints or body parts that the force travels through, then power will be transmitted from the reaction force into the ground, through the body, and out for the strike (like one ball transmitting the force through other balls in the Newton’s cradle toy and sending that force out through the last ball in the sequence). This does not require a large displacement of the intervening balls in the Newton's cradle toy example, yet the force is still transmitted.

This pulse mechanism probably does not concern fighters who strike from non-contact since they are free to wind up and move the segments of the body needed to generate momentum. But those who practice from-contact striking (or push-hands) will probably realize the benefit of developing pulse power to strike or push an opponent. Let’s call this pulse “pengjin” and you may see what I am trying to get at.


Thanks. It is an explanation that I can understand. It is the difference between push and pull. The pull I mean 起随追. It starts from the fist, follows by the body, and chases with the foot. There is always an argument in the last few decades on which one is the right approach. But I heard from the old masters that Fa Jin is always 起随追 (pull). Those old masters do not have the academic/scientific knowledge as most of you do but their conclusion come from their survival experience. The student of Wang Xiang Zhai I met had spent years to find something that could explain YiQuan FaJin. Finally, he was so happy to see the Newton's cradle toy. I prefer to study CMA from real life experience as CMA is for real life survival from its beginning. Try fight with a daggar to find out whether push and pull is more effective.
Last edited by suckinlhbf on Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Self-Improvement is Masturbation
suckinlhbf
Huajing
 
Posts: 419
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:46 pm

Re: Punch retraction

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:16 pm

What could be more kinetic chain than this

The energy is rooted in the feet
Sprouts from the thighs
Directed by the waist
Manifests in the finger tips

Fa Jin does not have to be worked on
It is in CORRECT forms
The energy in a fight comes from the adrenalin response
Any person who has been in real fights will know this
The training in the internal is to stop the overextension that leads to defeat
Technical,mental or spiritual
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3792
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Punch retraction

Postby Quigga on Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:25 pm

So you pull in the direction you want to punch?
You fa jin through the feet, leave it there or circle it around the body?
You become yin to their attack and leave it no space...
Quigga
Anjing
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:08 pm

Re: Punch retraction

Postby suckinlhbf on Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:19 pm

What could be more kinetic chain than this

The energy is rooted in the feet
Sprouts from the thighs
Directed by the waist
Manifests in the finger tips

So there are so many different ideas and argument. Keep an open mind and try it out would get the better options.

Fa Jin does not have to be worked on
It is in CORRECT forms

I would experiment FaJin to find any flaws in the CORRECT forms. Anyway, we can't get the CORRECT form, just strive to make it better.

The energy in a fight comes from the adrenalin response
Any person who has been in real fights will know this

Martial Arts train to manage and control the feelings of adrenalin in a real fight.

The training in the internal is to stop the overextension that leads to defeat
Technical,mental or spiritual

Martial art training is to serve the purpose of combat. It can be trained from various approach. "Internal" is a modern term in the history of martial arts.

Actually, there are different approaches to reach the same goal. Training will reduce the gap between doing a push or pull. At the end, it could be the same but I don't know. I am far from there.
Self-Improvement is Masturbation
suckinlhbf
Huajing
 
Posts: 419
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:46 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests