Punch retraction

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Punch retraction

Postby marvin8 on Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:15 am

LaoDan wrote:Is he sacrificing power by not committing as much kinetic chain motion as someone throwing a baseball or javelin? If not, then why? That is what I am interested in. If it is not purely kinetic chain, but still produces similar power (if it IS similar power), then what is the alternative explanation (other than the vague “qi” explanation)?

(After viewing your Chen Xiaowang punch video, I will re-answer because I believe Chen is using a sequential kinetic chain throw-like movement—for purposes of example.)

Yes, Chen's fajin is "sacrificing power by not committing as much kinetic chain motion as" a javelin thrower, baseball pitcher or boxer/MMA. However, the most power may not be Chen's goal. The wider the kinetic chain movement, the more force may be generated. There is a spectrum of kinetic chain movement and power: javelin thrower > boxer > Chen's fajin.

Boxing's straight punch > Chen's reverse/hidden fajin punch ("other than the vague 'qi' explanation"):
In the boxing clips below, Tyson and Hearns both throw jabs that bring their weight to the back foot carrying their head to the left of their opponent. Then, they push off the back foot (lifting heel up), rotate their waist and shoulders first, transfer their weight to the front foot where their head is to the right of their opponent, then finally issue/punch.

There are 3 weight distribution positions: 1) off the line with weight on the back foot, 2) centerline, 3) off the line with weight on the front foot. In the clips below, both Tyson and Hearns make greater use of their lines (e.g., greater weight shifts, rotation and off the line/position for defense) than Chen—generating more power while keeping their central equilibrium.

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LaoDan wrote:My answer is that there is a mixing in of pulse power that allows significant power generation without sacrificing one’s central equilibrium. The body can stay centered while delivering power if the displacement required with kinetic chain motions is partially replaced with pulse power. In the demonstrations, even though the arms show kinetic chain motions, there is less windup (or follow-through) that seen with someone throwing a baseball or a javelin. Why? Again, I would say that they are adding pulse power generation, at least in part. Do you consider the power generation of long and short power to be the same? If not, then what accounts for the difference? (Again, I would say that significant pulse power is added in short power generation.)


The following article says "the main source of neijin power lies in the waist region." Excerpts from "A Scientific Perspective of Neijin (Internal Strength):"

C.P. Ong on February 2017 wrote:The crisp power of Chen Xiaowang’s signature fajin exemplifies the unison of body motion and momentum, as captured in the video link [14].

Let us revisit the biomechanics of dang-yao jin (waist-groin power) to review neijin in the fajin of a punch. ...

In fact, Taijiquan recognizes that the main source of neijin power lies in the waist region. The Chinese term for it is more specific, called dang-yao jin 裆腰劲, which translates as waist-groin power. The terminology indicates that the power is derived from the pairing of the actions of the groin (dang) and waist (yao).

The eminent status of the waist-groin region is enshrined in the canons of Taijiquan [1]. The classical literatures are replete with references to the waist-groin as the center of control and the main source of power of neijin.

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Figure 1: Rotational motions at the waist-groin junction.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby marvin8 on Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:13 am

LaoDan wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:What could be more kinetic chain than this

The energy is rooted in the feet
Sprouts from the thighs
Directed by the waist
Manifests in the finger tips

I think that the TJQ saying can be applied to both kinetic chain and pulse (and hybrid) types of power generation.

The mechanism of the Newton’s cradle toy that I am referring to is the same one used to “root” an opponent’s force, depending on whether one is receiving or issuing (receiving travels from contact with the opponent to contact with the ground; issuing is the reverse, from the ground to the opponent). Rooting does not utilize kinetic chain mechanics, but does use the same alignments as pulse power does. The middle balls in the toy can transmit the power in either direction, from one end to the other and back and forth.

One can receive this way with very little kinetic chain type of movement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMR9BgWRbG8

Guan Nan Wang talks about your video of Chen Xiaowang vs Long Wu (strongman) on his facebook page:

Tri-Essence Martial Art on May 2, 2017 wrote:Just how fraud is Chen Xiaowang?

Ever remember a show where CXW challenges all kind of ppl pushing him? If not I've included the original video at the end, feel free to watch it to everything into context.

At the end of that show, CXW was pushing against one of the top strongman champion of Asia, a guy named Long Wu. For many years common folks thought CXW was the real deal because a top strongman pushed him with all his might and CXW did not move back a single step, sorry to bring it to ya all but that was a fake setup.

Firstly the whole pushing thing is a trick, if you pay close attention to CXW's hand, one is placed by the elbow of the pusher, the other behind his shoulder. The hand under the elbow pushes up, preventing most of the force from that arm to reach his own body, the other hand push in on the shoulder so majority of the force get trapped in the pusher's own torso rather than onto CXW. ...

Now that was what I thought about his tryout with Long Wu for all these years, but it turns out there was more. Long Wu recently declared in his own Weibo that after pushing CXW for 5 secs, CXW had to rest in a chair for over an hour, at the end Long Wu agreed to save face for the "grandmaster" and faked the rest. He decided to come out with the truth now due to Xu Xiaodong's "war" on frauds, or we can understand it as he wasn't paid enough to keep his slience, either way I'm glad the truth is coming out one way or the other.

He also said Wang Zhanjun who flick things with his belly, is nothing to be proud of either, any young guy from Long Wu's training camp can push him over. Long Wu didn't specifically say what he was referring to, but I would guess its about Wang holding against a sumo push in an old show.

Long also said CXW's indoor disciple Sun Wu, the sanda champ was only a 2nd tier champ, he won due to points and is no match for Long Wu's classmate who is also a sanda champ. If the Chen ppl dispute anything he said, he is willing to put up 200k RMB to publicly test those claims. Sorry to say but Long Wu forgot the Chen village doesn't care abt 200k, they make it with one baishi ceremony, maybe he ought to try 2 million?

Anyway I cant comment much on Long Wu's other claims, those were included because he said it, but one thing is certain, CXW staged the whole show where he pushed against Long Wu, and that is enough to call fraud on them.

Article in Chinese including screen cap from Long Wu's weibo
https://mbrowser.baidu.com/web/landing/rssdetail...

the show in question
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qEv7I4jSADI


And at 1:09:55 in "Fact or Fiction Ep9 Chen Xiaowang Part 2 Immovable Qi:"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jKSGlRKhDY&t=69m55s

LaoDan wrote:Issuing with pulse dynamics is rarely pure, even when people demonstrate 1” or 3” punches. There is almost always some amount of kinetic chain type of power generation added. Long power tends to favor kinetic chain dynamics, but short power tends to emphasize pulse power. If one can do both types, then they can mix them along a continuum rather than only using one or the other exclusively. But there is almost always less motion, either wind-up or follow-through, when the power is a combination of pulse and kinetic chain. Someone throwing a javelin or pitching a baseball use kinetic chain power generation, but their momentum carries them off-balance. But in TJQ we train to maintain our central equilibrium and avoid letting our momentum throw us off balance.

The following video shows various fajin movements, some longer and some shorter. But central equilibrium is maintained throughout:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LosS2vjmek

Guan Nan Wang talks about Chen Xiaowang's Hidden Punch (Yan Shou Hong Chuan) at 30:56 in "Fact or Fiction Ep9 Chen Xiaowang Part 3 Face Tanking:"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqDuKhs1c-Q&t=30m56s
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby LaoDan on Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:23 pm

I have not studied sports science or other fields that examine the dynamics of actions and the kinetic chain, but I am not really convinced that the kinetic chain is the only mechanism one can use to describe power generation. This potential alternative mechanism is not limited to the martial arts. But if one commonly describes actions using the kinetic chain terminology, and alternative mechanisms are not commonly referred to in the language used by those that analyze power generation, then the tendency would be to rely almost exclusively on kinetic chain descriptions to the exclusion of any possible alternatives.

Let’s look at baseball to illustrate my point since this sport is fairly likely to have been analyzed (hopefully this will be clear as to what I am referring to). A pitcher is probably using the kinetic chain principle throughout their motion, from leg kick through stepping forward, the windup, rotation of the body and the follow-through with the arm in order to increase the arm speed. A batter is similar in generating bat speed, except for at least one difference. This is the difference that I am interested in, and am curious about the explanations of this difference in body dynamics. A pitcher bends their front leg after it lands, presumably to continue the forward momentum of the body throughout the pitch; but a batter typically does not shift their torso forward, does not significantly bend the front leg, and stops the forward momentum of the torso. Why? How does this affect the kinetic chain explanation? How does the different use of the front leg affect the power generation (pitch speed vs. bat speed)?

I do not think that one could reasonably argue here that the batter is purposely sacrificing some of their potential power due to concerns with an opponent taking advantage of the action, but perhaps some rationalization could be made about keeping the torso back in order to have a split second longer to react to the incoming ball, or that rotating around a stable torso rather than one that is moving forward significantly may allow a batter to increase their chance to meet the ball if the batter and the ball are not both moving towards each other, but I think that something else may be involved.

So, from a strictly kinetic chain analysis, a batter who stops the forward momentum of the torso, by NOT bending the front leg and further shifting their torso forward, would be thought to be reducing their momentum from the kinetic chain and would therefore be reducing their power generation. Is this correct? I, however, think that the batter is using energy rebounding from the ground after being transmitted there through the front leg, and this helps power the batter’s swing. Have any studies been done to illuminate the power differences between shifting forward to (or past) the front leg [as with the pitcher] vs. rebounding force into the ground and back to the body [as with the batter]?

While the mechanics of a punch could be similar from the hips up, the legs may generate power differently between a punch delivered while shifting the weight forward or when keeping the torso more stationary while not shifting one’s torso forward significantly (i.e., using rebounding force into the ground rather than propelling the torso forward). Is there something that is erroneous in the above speculations? Does the pitcher develop a different amount of power than the batter because of the different ways that the front leg is used? Would similar leg differences for a martial arts strike effect the power generated? I do not know if studies on this have been done, but I welcome references (or speculative discussions).
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby suckinlhbf on Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:08 pm

LaoDan, I bet you have found the alternative mechanism. Otherwise, you won't make this statement "I am not really convinced that the kinetic chain is the only mechanism".
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby LaoDan on Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:57 pm

Well, my experience is still in the realm of subjectivity rather than objective testing. I could be deluding myself. I would prefer to have scientific confirmation of my speculations. But since kinetic chain power generation is so widely known, I am not certain that researchers are looking for and testing possible alternatives.

The Bajiquan video illustrates what I am getting at, but the three hypotheses that they propose do not really interpret what is demonstrated the same way that I see it. The following is getting close (although I do not really see him “pushing off” or “pivoting” instead of REBOUNDING as I see it (hypothetically)), but perhaps that is just using different terminology to describe what is essentially the same thing?:
First we found that master Chen applies to the ground a force of 2200 Newtons, and a torque of 11,000 Newton/meters when he strikes, precisely when his hand reaches maximum velocity. We hypothesize that he may be pushing off or pivoting from the ground into the object. As you can imagine, the force he transfers into the object must also be very high

[High magnitude floor reaction data: Force applied = 3x body weight; torque applied = 16x body weight * meter]
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby marvin8 on Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:12 pm

LaoDan wrote:I have not studied sports science or other fields that examine the dynamics of actions and the kinetic chain, but I am not really convinced that the kinetic chain is the only mechanism one can use to describe power generation. This potential alternative mechanism is not limited to the martial arts. But if one commonly describes actions using the kinetic chain terminology, and alternative mechanisms are not commonly referred to in the language used by those that analyze power generation, then the tendency would be to rely almost exclusively on kinetic chain descriptions to the exclusion of any possible alternatives.

The kinetic chain is commonly used to study power generation in MAs, javelin, baseball, football, etc. (of which I have posted numerous videos, articles and studies). However, one can use a different mechanism and I welcome it which I meant to suggest here:
marvin8 wrote:(... I believe Chen is using a sequential kinetic chain throw-like movement—for purposes of example.)

I believe using the kinetic chain model Chen is not generating as much power. Your models might show different. I will look over your examples and comment afterwards.

A logical question is are you suggesting the javelin thrower, quarterback, pitcher, etc. can generate more power, setting new world records, using methods other than the sequential kinetic chain throw-like movement?
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby suckinlhbf on Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:36 pm

Master Chen in the Bajiquan Video is a high level martial artist. The test comes with the kinetic chain mechanism, and try to fit the movements into the theory they want to test. The test can also come from another angle to start with the mechanic of the movement and which find out what theories it can fit in. However, the pulse mechanism is hard to see and realize. It can easily be missed. If they can find somebody who can do pulse mechanism in a pure way (generate power with a static posture), they may put him under x-ray to see how his bones and joints work. Getting into realizing the pulse mechanism with power rebounds from the ground takes quite some time.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby marvin8 on Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:42 pm

LaoDan wrote:Let’s look at baseball to illustrate my point since this sport is fairly likely to have been analyzed (hopefully this will be clear as to what I am referring to). A pitcher is probably using the kinetic chain principle throughout their motion, from leg kick through stepping forward, the windup, rotation of the body and the follow-through with the arm in order to increase the arm speed. A batter is similar in generating bat speed, except for at least one difference. This is the difference that I am interested in, and am curious about the explanations of this difference in body dynamics. A pitcher bends their front leg after it lands, presumably to continue the forward momentum of the body throughout the pitch;

No, a pitcher straightens their front leg after it lands, which starts to bear weight, acts as a brake and pivot point while rotation and throw finishes.

LaoDan wrote:but a batter typically does not shift their torso forward, does not significantly bend the front leg, and stops the forward momentum of the torso. Why? How does this affect the kinetic chain explanation? How does the different use of the front leg affect the power generation (pitch speed vs. bat speed)?

I do not think that one could reasonably argue here that the batter is purposely sacrificing some of their potential power due to concerns with an opponent taking advantage of the action, but perhaps some rationalization could be made about keeping the torso back in order to have a split second longer to react to the incoming ball, or that rotating around a stable torso rather than one that is moving forward significantly may allow a batter to increase their chance to meet the ball if the batter and the ball are not both moving towards each other, but I think that something else may be involved.

A batter shifts their weight from rear foot to lead leg, then rotation and swing finishes, similar to a pitcher. However, a pitcher is throwing a ball horizontally with the rear hand, not swinging a bat with two hands, different mechanics. A batter's goal is to time the baseball, swing the bat from low to high direction, keep it in bounds and many times knock it out of the park.

LaoDan wrote:So, from a strictly kinetic chain analysis, a batter who stops the forward momentum of the torso, by NOT bending the front leg and further shifting their torso forward, would be thought to be reducing their momentum from the kinetic chain and would therefore be reducing their power generation. Is this correct?

No. Like a pitcher, the batter transfers weight/force/momentum from the back foot to the front foot.

LaoDan wrote:I, however, think that the batter is using energy rebounding from the ground after being transmitted there through the front leg, and this helps power the batter’s swing. Have any studies been done to illuminate the power differences between shifting forward to (or past) the front leg [as with the pitcher] vs. rebounding force into the ground and back to the body [as with the batter]?

A pitcher throwing is not worried about timing a batter. The batter needs to wait and time the baseball. So, the batter balances himself with the front foot and lifts the front foot or heel with the timing of the baseball.

I don't believe rebound is that significant. However, a boxer/MMA will often half step jab, rebound weight to rear foot, then throw a rear straight. I do not see Chen Xiaowang rebounding. I see Chen starting more from waist rotation, yao power.

LaoDan wrote:While the mechanics of a punch could be similar from the hips up, the legs may generate power differently between a punch delivered while shifting the weight forward or when keeping the torso more stationary while not shifting one’s torso forward significantly (i.e., using rebounding force into the ground rather than propelling the torso forward). Is there something that is erroneous in the above speculations?

The more weight/force you transfer to the front foot, the more weight/power transfers into the opponent.

LaoDan wrote:Does the pitcher develop a different amount of power than the batter because of the different ways that the front leg is used?

Front leg is used the same, not different.

LaoDan wrote:Would similar leg differences for a martial arts strike effect the power generated? I do not know if studies on this have been done, but I welcome references (or speculative discussions).

There is not a lead leg difference between pitcher, batter or MAist. One can transfer less force into the opponent by not transferring as much weight/force into the front foot. Studies show that the lead leg is used as a brake and pivot point to transfer force (back foot to front foot) into the throw.

Now can you answer my question?

marvin8 wrote:A logical question is are you suggesting the javelin thrower, quarterback, pitcher, etc. can generate more power, setting new world records, using methods other than the sequential kinetic chain throw-like movement?
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby marvin8 on Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:53 pm

LaoDan wrote:Well, my experience is still in the realm of subjectivity rather than objective testing. I could be deluding myself. I would prefer to have scientific confirmation of my speculations. But since kinetic chain power generation is so widely known, I am not certain that researchers are looking for and testing possible alternatives.

The Bajiquan video illustrates what I am getting at, but the three hypotheses that they propose do not really interpret what is demonstrated the same way that I see it. The following is getting close (although I do not really see him “pushing off” or “pivoting” instead of REBOUNDING as I see it (hypothetically)), but perhaps that is just using different terminology to describe what is essentially the same thing?

Chen Xiang is using the lead hand punch not rear, different mechanics. It is similar to the Dempsey falling step, step jab, Bruce Lee's one inch punch, etc. I don't see the rebound or pulse. Maybe you can explain that more.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby LaoDan on Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:43 am

marvin8 wrote:Now can you answer my question?

marvin8 wrote:A logical question is are you suggesting the javelin thrower, quarterback, pitcher, etc. can generate more power, setting new world records, using methods other than the sequential kinetic chain throw-like movement?

I do not know, and I thank you for looking into it. You may be correct about the front leg mechanics of the throwers for baseball or javelin, etc.; I was being distracted by them continuing moving their bodies past this point such that they are essentially falling past their front leg. They may be using the same “braking” rebound force that I am looking at for the pulse mechanics when I used the examples of the batter, fajin, and the Bajiquan video. But wouldn’t the braking be different than kinetic chain? Kinetic chain is sequentially transferring energy from one segment of the body to the next, and braking appears like a different way of doing that (reversing the pathway, i.e. from the leg to the foot/ground then back up the leg...). The braking is what I am looking to understand better since this appears to be the mechanism being used differently than the kinetic chain. It is also what I think contributes power to the Baijiquan strikes (as well as stationary examples of fajin where the torso is rotating but not moving forward significantly). Starting at ~0:58 in the video (and stopped at the instant of rebound force at ~1:19 to show it clearly, I hope) they show a force rebounding from the floor back towards his body. This is what I am interested in.


I think that, let’s call it braking force (although it can also be used as a pulse as when standing stationary like in the fajin examples), is important for understanding power generation. Perhaps rather than simply breaking (stopping their momentum), a thrower who purposely increases the rebounding force from that breaking could possibly increase their power and improve their throws? I am just speculating here since I am not sure if this has been tried or experimented with.

Dogmas exist frequently until someone shows other possibilities. Often revelations come from exceptionally skilled (and unusual or self-taught individuals) “freaks of nature.” I remember Usain Bolt talking about coaches who tried to have him change his body posture from a backward lean to a forward lean and he thinking that if he changed he would be back running with other competitors rather than being out front with his unique way of running. Still, even with his example, I do not see any other runners adapting his posture in an attempt to replicate his accomplishments. I do not know, and I thank you for looking into it.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby suckinlhbf on Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:57 am

braking force

In CMA prospective, braking force is "stop the car suddenly". The body of the car goes down other than moves up. Moving up the body while sudden stop is not braking force.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby johnwang on Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:30 am

Instead of pulling your empty hand back, if you

- throw a right punch, your opponent blocks it.
- You pull his blocking arm, and punch with another hand.
- When he blocks your 2nd punch, you release your pulling hand and punch him again.

This way, your arm pulling will force your opponent to block with his other arm. your 3rd punch can then punch through the gape between his arms.

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Re: Punch retraction

Postby LaoDan on Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:41 am

suckinlhbf wrote:
braking force

In CMA prospective, braking force is "stop the car suddenly". The body of the car goes down other than moves up. Moving up the body while sudden stop is not braking force.

If coaches and athletes think of the front leg merely as a brake, then I doubt if they are thinking about it as a power generator. “Brake” may be a bad term for what I am talking about, and I still think of it more as a rebounding pulse.

One sport that I can think of that tries to maximize the rebound force from the ground is in pole vaulting, although there the athlete is maximizing the rebound through the pole rather than through their front leg. But I think the power generation principle is similar to what I am trying to examine with striking.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby marvin8 on Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:46 am

LaoDan wrote:
suckinlhbf wrote:
braking force

In CMA prospective, braking force is "stop the car suddenly". The body of the car goes down other than moves up. Moving up the body while sudden stop is not braking force.

If coaches and athletes think of the front leg merely as a brake, then I doubt if they are thinking about it as a power generator. “Brake” may be a bad term for what I am talking about, and I still think of it more as a rebounding pulse.

They don't. The lead leg is part of the power generation. As ground force is transferred to the lead leg, rotation and issuing continue:

marvin8 wrote:No, a pitcher straightens their front leg after it lands, which starts to bear weight, acts as a brake and pivot point while rotation and throw finishes.

In tai chi's Brush Knee as the foot lands, weight is being shifted, the waist and shoulders rotate and hand is issued. The Tyson clip and football videos clearly show and explain it is part of the kinetic chain. Baji and Xingyi generate power differently, relying more on stepping and momentum with no rotation once the foot lands.

LaoDan wrote:One sport that I can think of that tries to maximize the rebound force from the ground is in pole vaulting, although there the athlete is maximizing the rebound through the pole rather than through their front leg. But I think the power generation principle is similar to what I am trying to examine with striking.

"Rebound" is not the correct word because there is no bouncing. In the rear straight as the toe-heel lands, weight is transferred to the lead leg, waist rotates, then shoulders, then the punch is issued.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby suckinlhbf on Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:47 am

I still think of it more as a rebounding pulse.

Front leg stops together with the body goes down will lead the rear leg to press on the ground. It will induce a rebound. The hip will open at the same time of dropping to create the structure for the rear leg onto the ground. Another old saying to help is "push the knee forward" at the time of dropping. It is a rebounding pulse.

The rebound comes after the body weight bends the pole.
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