A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:26 pm

dspyrido wrote:Fajin should be learnt to be applied through any of the 7 stars.

It should be practised in the air (to get coordination) and on training targets (to develop structure). Through drills (pads & partners) and sparring then it becomes usable.

With time & practise it flows into shorter, faster and lighter strikes that are hard to read yet still can hurt. This is only understood through hitting people.

Well said.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:27 pm

johnwang wrote:If you talk about

- Fajin to a praying mantis guy, or
- speed to a Baji guy,

he will laugh at you. If you try to

- throw 3 punches within 1 second, you don't have time to Fajin.
- Fajin by compress and release within 1 second, you don't have speed.

Only after you have cross trained both Baji (or Chen Taiji, XYLH) and PM, you then realize that power and speed are relative and not absolute. If you can land 50 lb force on your opponent's head, it's much better than to generate 100 lb force and hit into the thin air.

Don't think about power. Don't think about speed. The power that you think about is not your true power. The speed that you think about is not your true speed. Just let your body to flow.

Fajin is not slow. Use the lead hand for speed.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:31 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:
Store and then issue

You would find yourself being "KO" before you can issue.

let your body to flow.

It is the flow that works. Taichi quote - "Peng Jin through out everywhere, every moment". If you store and issue, there is no Peng Jin.

Storing and issuing take a split second each. It is not slow. The storing is more like potential energy. A boulder is on the edge of a steep hill. The slightest force could cause it to roll down and squash someone. There is little to no build up. It must come from a fluid state of relaxation (not in the Taiji sense), as in the opposite of tense.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby everything on Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:11 am

this is one of those instances where the vocabulary is probably in the way as it's not really clear if anyone here (or anywhere, ever) is talking about the same thing. if we talk about ordinary things like moving a piano or kicking a ball, well you can do those things with "brute force". but then a punch or kick or hip throw could be the same way. if we talk about some kind of "energy" involved, it gets more interesting, but it's hard to follow if that's what people mean or care to talk about.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby dspyrido on Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:05 pm

Reading about fajin is pointless. Practising it is everything.

It's not a magical. It's just using the whole body (including bows) in a coordinated energetic way.

The hard part is repeating a move correctly 100,000+ times.

Do that and eventual the big move becomes smaller, faster and more refined. The body changes to accommodate for the training.

As my xylh sifu used to say "without fa jin you have nothing"
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby everything on Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:32 pm

a refined movement that becomes a smaller and smaller movement - i think we should just call that refined movement as in all athletics. not sure what that's what people here mean, but it usually sounds like it. which is fine and good, just we shouldn't try to claim it's something different in that case. there shouldn't be internal vs. external with that kind of definition.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:37 am

If you're not sure what it even means, why even offer an opinion on it at all??? In China there wasn't even a debate about what Fajin is or isn't. Everyone that does TCMA knows. The question is whether they are able to do it or if they will admit that they can't...
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby everything on Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:20 am

lolol it's more that it's incredibly unclear if anyone here thinks the same thing. Of course we can all agree practicality is the main question, but all we have on a forum is words on the idea, and the words/ideas here don't seem clear (not specifically to me, just in general: I mean it doesn't sound like anyone posting is talking about x. Everyone is talking past each other about a, b, c, d.). I think for a: people just say, take something like a baseball pitcher's windup (storing) and make it small. Well sure. For b: someone will say, no, there is "special" physics that doesn't apply to sports, to which I say, bullshit. c: just add legs. d: qi. e: qi doesn't exist. f: wth, just do mma. smdh.

that applies to this discussion for the past 12 years i've read rsf, and a few years of ef before that. decades of people not talking the same thing. which is strange b/c people posting here come across as really knowing a lot of stuff.
Last edited by everything on Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:20 am

MaartenSFS wrote:If you're not sure what it even means, why even offer an opinion on it at all??? In China there wasn't even a debate about what Fajin is or isn't. Everyone that does TCMA knows. The question is whether they are able to do it or if they will admit that they can't...



IME it was never mentioned feeling it was very basic.
The only time it was pointed out when someone was using a certain type of “Jin”
as in , sinking, or cold “ Jin”
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby everything on Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:34 am

Yeung wrote:
From classical literatures, Fa Jin has the following characteristics:

1. Store and then issue
2. Store power is like an opened bow
3. Issue power is like a released arrow
4. Coordinating the torso and limbs

Fa Jin is a combinational of stored power and the generated power to issue a greater power. Traditionally the body is descripted as the movements of 15 joints of arms, legs, and the spine. The generated strength is a combination of the movements of these joints to form a straight line of attack. This in a way fits the concept of the Chinese character of Jin (勁) with reference to the generation of power from the movement of multiple joints.


all of that could apply to many examples such as hitting a golf ball or baseball. hitting a bag. hitting a person. ??? :-\
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby everything on Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:40 am

Yeung wrote:The term Fa Jin (simplified characters 发劲, traditional characters 發勁) means issuing or sending forth power or energy. The character Jin (勁) a combination of two characters of Jing (巠) and Li (力). Jing (巠) means streams run to the groun and Li (力) means power generated by muscles and tendons. Therefore, Jin (勁) can be interpreted as multiple channels of forces or energy and Li (力) is a simple kind of force or energy.


this part sounds more interesting. we could talk about "root" and "uproot", but usually that just goes down paths of talking past each other as well:
a. it's different in taijiquan
b. no, it's not.
c. you need to add legs.
d. etc etc.
e. your application wasn't against resistance / retracted arm.
f. jimmy will post a gif and video we can't interpret.

if you want to narrow your focus, OP, or others, maybe it'd be interesting.

if we keep it abstract, everyone will talk about his favorite aspect.
Last edited by everything on Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby everything on Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:58 am

some more narrow focus sub-topics people seem to like:

1. start from large external movements, make them small.
2. taijiquan throws should add legs.
3. "special" physics.
4. ok but do that against resistance or moving limbs.
5. no external movement, move internal energy. slowly do more visible external movement.

I would think on an "internal" forum, we mainly want to talk about #5, but I'd say people mainly want to talk about #1-4. probably 5 is a little too boring since there isn't anything to see, but personally I find 1-4 to be terribly boring and on only 5 is interesting.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:51 pm

Anyone that has trained most TCMA and sparred long enough should be able to do it and be clear about what is happening and why. I have explained the physics behind my expression of Fajin on here multiple times. I can and have used it in sparring against fully resistant opponents. It took me about three years to achieve that, but it was worth it. It is in no way, shape or form like other sports. It is a unique power generation method that was designed for a specific purpose. Any other so-called Fajin is fake either intentionally or through delusion.

Also, there is no such thing as number five - though it may appear to be so to the layman. There is no internal without external. It seemed like magic to me as well, until I learned it and understood the physics behind it. Spending years and years arguing on this forum is not any sort of achievement. I would seek out proper instruction and put it to rest. Hell, I'd be happy to show and let you feel it. Mind you, being able to Fajin doesn't mean that you will be able to beat someone in sparring. It's just a very potent tool in your armoury.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby suckinlhbf on Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:02 pm

It is in no way, shape or form like other sports. It is a unique power generation method that was designed for a specific purpose. Any other so-called Fajin is fake either intentionally or through delusion.

Agree. Miss this description for a long long time.

there is no such thing as number five

The internal mechanism is part of the overall mechanism. Internal energy is the feeling but couldn't feel it in the process of fajin.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby dspyrido on Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:24 pm

everything wrote:lolol it's more that it's incredibly unclear if anyone here thinks the same thing.


You can get meta with everything e.g. try capturing the complexities of lifting your hand. In the end as I mentioned earlier....

dspyrido wrote:Reading about fajin is pointless. Practising it is everything.

It's not a magical. It's just using the whole body (including bows) in a coordinated energetic way.

The hard part is repeating a move correctly 100,000+ times.


With time the mind stops thinking & just does. It's as JW says...

johnwang wrote:Don't think about power. Don't think about speed. The power that you think about is not your true power. The speed that you think about is not your true speed. Just let your body to flow.


Regarding this one...

suckinlhbf wrote:The internal mechanism is part of the overall mechanism. Internal energy is the feeling but couldn't feel it in the process of fajin.


IME internal discussions are pointless. Anyone who repeats over and over will understand it. Anyone who doesn't is just wishful thinking.

Most importantly is what MarteenSFS mentions - can it be applied in sparring?

I know that through countless repetitions and applying it in sparring (I recently joined a pure boxing group just to test out arm techniques) and can say that regardless if it's called fa jin or not - it's all in the repetition training.
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