A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby everything on Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:51 pm

MaartenSFS wrote: Spending years and years arguing on this forum is not any sort of achievement.


smdh. no it is not. no idea who would say it is. I said we repeat the same stupid arguments over and over.

the fajin i've felt before doesn't use #1 (make a large movement smaller) or #3 ("special" physics). I can explain what it felt like as the recipient and at an elementary school level, what it felt like as the doer, but can I/you/anyone here use it in sparring? I doubt it. it's too hard to talk about and doesn't show up in video. If instead of "energy" there is "special" physics (again I say that's b.s. unless we say these two are the same thing) I would be interested, but nobody has explained it here. To say "I learned it and can show you" is indeed interesting, and I think it's very good if you guys can do that, but it doesn't sound like it can be explained in words here or shown in video.

To say "well you just have to do it" is almost contradictory of "special" - if it's anyone can do it, then there isn't anything special or worth talking about. For example, I can kick a soccer/football in an average way. At times I can hit good power with nearly no windup. But that isn't impressive. It isn't "internal power". It's just more efficient movement done over time (what I said was #1 - the large movement is refined over time). We all work on that. all MA work on that. I don't think that's what the OP meant in his definition.
Last edited by everything on Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby everything on Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:57 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:
It is in no way, shape or form like other sports. It is a unique power generation method that was designed for a specific purpose. Any other so-called Fajin is fake either intentionally or through delusion.

Agree. Miss this description for a long long time.

there is no such thing as number five

The internal mechanism is part of the overall mechanism. Internal energy is the feeling but couldn't feel it in the process of fajin.


ok in that case I think we may be talking about the same feeling.

Is it a pointless discussion? Yeah probably. Because there just isn't that much to talk about as you guys say. Can we do it? is the only question.

No, not to be too meta, but the first 1.5 pages just read like "here we go again. nobody defines this the same."
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby everything on Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:50 pm

I'll give you a few examples I've said here some other times to be more clear.

Once in cooperative push hands, I stood there in a flat footed hug tree sort of posture. My pushing partner pushed lightly on both my arms. For whatever reason, I felt his right hand applied barely more pressure on my left arm. I felt energy/qi/electrical/fluid feeling circulate from there around a horizontal circle to my right arm, then felt a sense of "pressure" that pushed his left hand and he moved back. It took maybe 1s, but felt like slow motion, about 3s. Whatever "push" he gave me "pushed himself". I felt literally nothing, did nothing, except that energy seemed to come from his hand and go to his other hand. Nothing mechanical.

Several times in taijiquan camp with Ben Lo, he would "push" me (everyone), and I would feel "pushed", similar to how an ocean wave moves your whole body - you don't really feel any pressure - you just perceive you're being moved. I felt no energy and could detect NOTHING mechanical.

Once, I asked Tim Cartmell to "press" me. He barely moved. I went flying up in the air. I could feel no energy. I could detect the smallest mechanical movement. Did he use the same "energy" as in the above two? I don't know. It could have been qualitatively the same with some bare minimum of mechanical movement. It could've been just the bare minimum of movement. I don't know.

If you're talking about at least one of those kinds of things, and especially if you say you are way past these simpler examples and can do all that and much more, then I'm all ears. If you are not, it's boring. Sorry. You can be the best fighter with no fajin and no use of internal energy, and we should only talk about fighting instead, not "internal arts".
Last edited by everything on Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:23 pm

Fajin is applied more easily in Tuishou, which is why you barely noticed anything. It doesn't take much. A solid root, the correct angle and finding the weak point before giving the slightest push is all that it takes. Complete relaxation is also necessary, which is easy when there is nothing at stake.

I know that you were hoping that there was more to it, but
that is the truth. You've been duped...
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:56 pm

everything wrote:I'll give you a few examples I've said here some other times to be more clear.

Once in cooperative push hands, I stood there in a flat footed hug tree sort of posture. My pushing partner pushed lightly on both my arms. For whatever reason, I felt his right hand applied barely more pressure on my left arm. I felt energy/qi/electrical/fluid feeling circulate from there around a horizontal circle to my right arm, then felt a sense of "pressure" that pushed his left hand and he moved back. It took maybe 1s, but felt like slow motion, about 3s. Whatever "push" he gave me "pushed himself". I felt literally nothing, did nothing, except that energy seemed to come from his hand and go to his other hand. Nothing mechanical.

What "energy" stand in the ocean you will feel the same principles acting on your body.
You are standing in an ocean of air "Qi" the body is surrounded by its own field referred to as a "qi chong"




Several times in taijiquan camp with Ben Lo, he would "push" me (everyone), and I would feel "pushed", similar to how an ocean wave moves your whole body - you don't really feel any pressure - you just perceive you're being moved. I felt no energy and could detect NOTHING mechanical.
You also feel no force in standing, and yet there is an equal and opposite force being applied by you that allows you to stand
If any of the forces are changed your body will react accordingly trying to re-establish its equilibrium

"Newton's third law: If an object A exerts a force on object B, then object B must exert a force of equal magnitude and opposite direction back on object A."


Once, I asked Tim Cartmell to "press" me. He barely moved. I went flying up in the air. I could feel no energy. I could detect the smallest mechanical movement. Did he use the same "energy" as in the above two? I don't know. It could have been qualitatively the same with some bare minimum of mechanical movement. It could've been just the bare minimum of movement. I don't know.

The same principles at work, why would it not be so?


If you're talking about at least one of those kinds of things, and especially if you say you are way past these simpler examples and can do all that and much more, then I'm all ears. If you are not, it's boring. Sorry. You can be the best fighter with no fajin and no use of internal energy, and we should only talk about fighting instead, not "internal arts".



With out relating any of "those" things to combative applications they remain in the realm of what some here might call "woo-woo" a trick.
Not always the case as it's a 2 part process of gaining a skill and then understanding how to use it.

On the other hand to gain/study the skill directly, it is often studied in a non combative context

The ability to do any of it does not confer combative ability, it can be added to ones tool box so to speak for those
seeking a "combative" advantage. Sometimes people get confused thinking a skill equals experience in usage, not understanding
there's another part to the training.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:20 pm

some examples of fa-jin in use within a context.
Related to fighting and usage based on the training / skill gained in the context

He is using whats called "long power" "Its a demo" teaching lesson.

if he used "short power" the other person would have no chance to adapt to it
and change...."short power" "bing jin" tends to break the structure and shock the opponents insides.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4heo0ZtTaKo&t=29s
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:36 pm

What he said. +1
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:49 pm

Last edited by windwalker on Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:52 pm

Good stuff. VERY similar to what I do.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby Finny on Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:08 pm

What a load of wank. I don't believe that guy has never actually fought anyone.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:14 pm

Let's see your sparring using TCMA, then.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby Finny on Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:27 pm

I don't do TCMA anymore. And that isn't sparring. Honestly, do you actually think that clip showed good stuff? What was good about it?

My interpretation was that it featured someone showing over-committed, under-protected entries against a stationary mannequin, and joking/stroking themselves because the mannequin flinched. It was weird. Additionally, the follow up techniques (in particular one series ending an a strange looking kick) seemed awkward and uncoordinated.

Again - other than attacking me, what do you actually think was 'good stuff'?
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:36 pm

Finny wrote:I don't do TCMA anymore.

I rest my case...

I didn't say it was sparring.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby Finny on Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:44 pm

So your 'case' is that I don't do CMA? Or that you haven't seen me 'sparring using TCMA'? I'm still unsure what you're trying to say, other than you think the vid shows 'good stuff'. I've said that my case is - CMA or no - that is not teaching for someone wanting to know anything about fighting.

Again - what about it is good?
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:02 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:
Finny wrote:I don't do TCMA anymore.

I rest my case...

I didn't say it was sparring.


Lets review

a definition was given of "fa-jin"
examples talked about
A video posted showing and explaining some of the basic ideas
Another video posted showing some strategies used according to a method and style of CMA

And now the clip itself comes into question.

Do those commenting on what is shown claim to have or practice what is shown ie " fa-jin"

With out this component of ability or understanding , what is the point, critiquing a training clip? :P

kind of pointless to continue no ? :-\
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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