A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby johnwang on Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:54 pm

edededed wrote:(The 1st video - isn't that Chaquan #4? Still longfist though anyway.)

But good to see the compress and release in longfist (I never went too far in that art, so do not really understand it).

You are right. The 1st clip is long fist Chaquan #4. When I did cut and paste, I forgot to correct it. Both forms are the highest level training form in the long fist system. Most long fist students will graduate from the long fist system after have finished these 2 forms.

The more that I think about Fajin, the more that I believe to hide the compress at the end of the previous move is an excellent idea. For example, when you throw a roundhouse kick, your opponent can see it coming when your body start to rotate. But if you hide your body rotation at the end of your front kick, it's harder to see it.

In the following clip, long fist Paoquan #3, the compress is done during the left stiff guard. In my today's class, I did a measurement on this footwork. My student could cover 20 feet distance by this footwork.

The compress is hidden in the long distance footwork.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby Yeung on Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:08 pm

edededed wrote:In my opinion, I think it is based on the type of fajin.

For bajiquan, xingyiquan, baguazhang, etc. - practicing fajin on bags should be fine.
For taijiquan - practicing fajin may not work as well.


The term Fa Jin 發勁 means the issuing of forces but Taijiquan defined it as store and issue which sort of excluded striking techniques without using stored energy. In biomechanics, stored elastic energy is produced by lengthening muscle fibers and when the tension in the muscle fibers released then the muscle fibers recoil back to the original length. There is a difference with issuing force with and without utilizing stored elastic energy (SEE). Take the examples from boxing:

A jab is to punch quickly in low intensity without utilizing SEE.
A cross is to punch heavily in high intensity without utilizing SEE.
A hook in some cases does pull back and strike which utilizing SEE
A pull counter is a bit complicated because of the different muscle groups are involved in utilizing SEE

Therefore, this definition sort of excluded the type of striking technique from soft to tense like doing a double or triple jabs or a heavy cross needed a bit more time to retract compare to a jab.

The following link on pull counter which might explain a bit on utilizing SEE and plyometric:

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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby everything on Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:05 pm

so you guys know this is how you kick a ball well right? have you ever watched the top pro athletes at the most popular sports in the world (those attracting the most participants and viewers and level of competition)? sometimes it sounds like people live under a rock. if your "special" physics is based on "energy" and not "elasticity" I'm still in. otherwise, why don't we just change to "mma r us" forum if nobody cares about "internal". we can talk for days about adesanya instead since he can actually do shit. it's just ironic the main forum was supposedly on "internal".
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby Trip on Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:38 pm

No one is stopping you from talking about internal.

Inform.
What is internal?

What in the pull counter is not internal?
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:36 pm

You can go back to believing in magic if you want to, but if you aren't willing to seek out a non-charlatan teacher and work hard, now may be a good time to reevaluate your life and pursue other hobbies because you will never get anywhere worth going with it...
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:51 pm

everything wrote:if nobody cares about "internal".

If you care about "internal", can you describe any difference between

1. Taiji Fajin,

Image

2. Baji Fajin?

Image
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby Trick on Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:18 pm

johnwang wrote:
everything wrote:if nobody cares about "internal".

If you care about "internal", can you describe any difference between

1. Taiji Fajin,

Image

2. Baji Fajin?

Image

I don’t knownBajiquan, and I won’t say anything specific about Fajin, but as I have pointed out before if ones striking is in an aggressor way(strike chase the target) it’s not an Taiji strike...
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby dspyrido on Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:06 am

johnwang wrote:If you care about "internal", can you describe any difference between


I was shown several fa jin basics. The commonality of them was they all:

1. relied on store and release types of movements
2. they all engaged in pistoning the whole body (big focus on using the hips & some did the legs)
3. relied on really stretching body's joints out
4. all where done vigorously and with a sharp expression of power

With repetition this leads to changes in the body and the ability to generate power in all movements. Over time the body changes. This is the magic of fajin training. It's not about trying to mimic Master X's moves but to develop the body, structure and coordination.

With time the need to store before release becomes shorter and harder to see. I call that internal because it's hard to see how small movements can generate so much stopping power.

If anyone has an alternative definition or training method I would welcome hearing it. The major sticking point is that I have never met anyone who could generate a lot of power that did not drill these fajin type exercises 100k+ times. To top that off I have not met many "internal" martial artists who did NOT drill this much and could throw a solid body crushing punch.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby Yeung on Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:27 am

everything wrote:
Yeung wrote:
From classical literatures, Fa Jin has the following characteristics:

1. Store and then issue
2. Store power is like an opened bow
3. Issue power is like a released arrow
4. Coordinating the torso and limbs

Fa Jin is a combinational of stored power and the generated power to issue a greater power. Traditionally the body is descripted as the movements of 15 joints of arms, legs, and the spine. The generated strength is a combination of the movements of these joints to form a straight line of attack. This in a way fits the concept of the Chinese character of Jin (勁) with reference to the generation of power from the movement of multiple joints.


all of that could apply to many examples such as hitting a golf ball or baseball. hitting a bag. hitting a person. ??? :-\


You are right plyometric is applicable to sports, such as boxing:
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:50 am

dspyrido wrote:
johnwang wrote:If you care about "internal", can you describe any difference between


I was shown several fa jin basics. The commonality of them was they all:

1. relied on store and release types of movements
2. they all engaged in pistoning the whole body (big focus on using the hips & some did the legs)
3. relied on really stretching body's joints out
4. all where done vigorously and with a sharp expression of power

With repetition this leads to changes in the body and the ability to generate power in all movements. Over time the body changes. This is the magic of fajin training. It's not about trying to mimic Master X's moves but to develop the body, structure and coordination.

With time the need to store before release becomes shorter and harder to see. I call that internal because it's hard to see how small movements can generate so much stopping power.

If anyone has an alternative definition or training method I would welcome hearing it. The major sticking point is that I have never met anyone who could generate a lot of power that did not drill these fajin type exercises 100k+ times. To top that off I have not met many "internal" martial artists who actually drilled this much and could throw a solid body crushing punch.

Exactly. What did you mean by your last sentence, though?

There is no way to produce useable Fajin by only training the form.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby robert on Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:26 am

johnwang wrote:If you care about "internal", can you describe any difference between

1. Taiji Fajin,

2. Baji Fajin?

I don't think internal and external are black and white; there are shades of grey. Taiji, Xinyi/Xingyi, Bagua, and Yiquan should be purely internal. I'm not sure what CMA is purely external, but put it on the other side - then there are CMA's in between. Baihe, Baji, and Piqua seem to be pretty internal. Adam Hsu said that he was training Baji, but couldn't get the body mechanics right so his teacher sent him to study Taiji with a friend of his Baji teacher. If Taiji and Baji fajin are done correctly I don't think there is a difference. Watching people do Taiji, Xinyi/Xingyi, and Bagua some people are internal some pretty external. That is a question of how good they are. I see the same thing with Baihe, but I don't know enough about it to know if they are different schools of thought or if it's a question of good vs not good.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby dspyrido on Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:59 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Exactly. What did you mean by your last sentence, though?

There is no way to produce useable Fajin by only training the form.


Apologies, messed up the description. Have updated it.

Without drilling over and over effective fajin can't be achieved. Long sequence form, push hands, following Master X, feeling Chi, meditation etc. might indirectly help but are minor to it.

I don't even think body mechanics rate that high either when compared to repetition. You can show someone the mechanics but unless their sinews, fibres, bones etc. change (which only happens in drilling) then they won't have the structure to support these movement.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:09 pm

Okay, I'm afraid that I have no choice but to agree with you there. Fajin can only be learned by doing Fajin drills and body mechanics can only learned by repeatedly drilling the movements, who would have known?! What, I can't learn explosive power or how to fight by doing a form slowly or gently pushing someone? Heresy!
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:12 pm

robert wrote:
johnwang wrote:If you care about "internal", can you describe any difference between

1. Taiji Fajin,

2. Baji Fajin?

I don't think internal and external are black and white; there are shades of grey. Taiji, Xinyi/Xingyi, Bagua, and Yiquan should be purely internal. I'm not sure what CMA is purely external, but put it on the other side - then there are CMA's in between. Baihe, Baji, and Piqua seem to be pretty internal. Adam Hsu said that he was training Baji, but couldn't get the body mechanics right so his teacher sent him to study Taiji with a friend of his Baji teacher. If Taiji and Baji fajin are done correctly I don't think there is a difference. Watching people do Taiji, Xinyi/Xingyi, and Bagua some people are internal some pretty external. That is a question of how good they are. I see the same thing with Baihe, but I don't know enough about it to know if they are different schools of thought or if it's a question of good vs not good.

Have you actually trained with people that have reached a high level in these arts??? Your idea of what constitutes an internal art is prepostorous...
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby everything on Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:36 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:You can go back to believing in magic if you want to, but if you aren't willing to seek out a non-charlatan teacher and work hard, now may be a good time to reevaluate your life and pursue other hobbies because you will never get anywhere worth going with it...


lolol like you said fajin may not even be useful in sparring. the thing about it is - it doesn't matter, does it? adesanya and fedor don't need it, so why should we or anyone?

"magic" and "hugging qi" won't mean anything for MA, but qigong + ma combined into "internal MA" is more interesting imho, at least it should be on an "internal arts" forum. don't get me wrong, if we want to talk MMA, why don't we just do it? a few people here say the same stupid shit nonstop. we already get it. for "magic", if there is "special physics" and no such thing as "sink qi to dantian", then why don't we talk about that? it should be so easy, but nobody has ever been able to explain it. people explain the sambo casting punch or tyson's hook quite easily, but nobody hear can explain some common internal aspects. that's why everyone seems to just blather their own stupid arguments. here's sunlutang on internal power (I added bold):

The Elixir Book says: “The Way: from emptiness arises a single energy, then from the single energy is generated the passive and active aspects, the passive and active then combine to make the three substances, and then from the three substances are all things born and raised.” This is the idea. And so it is said that nothingness and oneness are the root of sky and ground, the ancestor of the passive and active, the progenitor of all things, the “golden elixir”. It is also the internal power within Xingyi Boxing.
Most people do not know what this internal power is and tend to look to the body’s shape or appearance to get some idea, or that it might be a case of an effort in the mind or a movement in the belly, and they go on like this in countless ways, but it is all just tossing out a brick in response to a call for a tile, confusing the false with what is true. Therefore one who practices the boxing is like a cow hair [very common] while one who has succeeded in the method is like a unicorn horn [extremely rare]. You must examine this deeply. Then when going through your practice, the myriad techniques all come out of the three-substance posture. This posture is the gateway to the method, the main tool in Xingyi Boxing.


It seems extraordinarily clear when he says
Most people do not know what this internal power is and tend to look to the body’s shape or appearance to get some idea, or that it might be a case of an effort in the mind or a movement in the belly, and they go on like this in countless ways, but it is all just tossing out a brick in response to a call for a tile, confusing the false with what is true.


it should be very, very obvious not to look at the body's shape or appearance or some kind of movement in the belly.

yet that is EXACTLY what people here repeatedly do. that is NOT a bad thing to do for any kind of "external" movement (which is a MUST) yet that is maybe why people go down this line of thought for "internal" as well. if we think Sun (and a bunch of these guys) are right, then we should know it's not some "movement in the belly", some "imagination", or some kind of "extra move". but OTOH, we could just say they are all wrong, or can anybody do it? (do we even know if they could do it?).

on the hobbies, when you get older, "fighting" isn't really that interesting. "self defense" is so much more broad, and I don't mean weapons. other hobbies are a lot more interesting. nobody here is going to get extremely far in the sense that we're not exactly going to go fight Adesanya. my talents are only average in all sports, so that only leaves recreational level to pursue. the most popular sports are more fun - not just according to me, but nearly by definition (hence they're more popular). for me, it's the same with IMA. I am indeed getting "nowhere" in it (about as far as I get with any other hobby) ---- that should neither bother anyone nor should it mean that you shouldn't read Sun's comments for yourself ---- don't take some random other internet dog's word for it. maybe i'm just spouting "magic" and nonsense. but you should try to read that and understand it. or not. I slightly feel sorry that people (especially those who say they like "internal") are not interested in "internal" and it's always sad to read the same b.s. on the main forum. but who cares? if it's interesting and useful, somebody somewhere will learn it. if Sun and a ton of those guys from that generation aren't clear enough, I have no idea what the problem is. Probably it really is too unbelievable, I'd guess. It does sound like some kind of bullshit and magic. Yet they say it again and again super clearly in a down to earth way. Or perhaps they really were no good at MA at all, or the xingyi fighters did well in those National tournaments because the external aspects are already so good (again, why would Fedor need internal power, deliberately? if you don't need it, you don't need it). OTOH if we think "whomever is best at fighting has the best advice" - it sounds good, but then every few years when that UFC champ is no longer champ, we should stop listening to him or her right? That obviously doesn't make sense, either. When a bunch of people good at it write the exact same advice, down, though, should we listen? Maybe. This is all BTDT.
Last edited by everything on Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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