A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:43 pm

By God, you've gone off your rocker..
I can't even believe that you yourself understand what you have written. Fajin is an important component of all internal martial arts. I said that there is no guarantee for it to work because timing, distancing etc. must also be mastered to land your strikes. That is true of any martial art. You need to get back on your meds, mate...
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby marvin8 on Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:45 pm

everything wrote:so you guys know this is how you kick a ball well right? have you ever watched the top pro athletes at the most popular sports in the world (those attracting the most participants and viewers and level of competition)? sometimes it sounds like people live under a rock. if your "special" physics is based on "energy" and not "elasticity" I'm still in. otherwise, why don't we just change to "mma r us" forum if nobody cares about "internal". we can talk for days about adesanya instead since he can actually do shit. it's just ironic the main forum was supposedly on "internal".

Right. MMA, boxing, sports, etc. use both energy (aka convert ground reaction force to punch force) and stored elastic energy ("SEE").

Yeung wrote:The term Fa Jin 發勁 means the issuing of forces but Taijiquan defined it as store and issue which sort of excluded striking techniques without using stored energy. In biomechanics, stored elastic energy is produced by lengthening muscle fibers and when the tension in the muscle fibers released then the muscle fibers recoil back to the original length. There is a difference with issuing force with and without utilizing stored elastic energy (SEE). Take the examples from boxing:

A jab is to punch quickly in low intensity without utilizing SEE.
A cross is to punch heavily in high intensity without utilizing SEE.

A hook in some cases does pull back and strike which utilizing SEE
A pull counter is a bit complicated because of the different muscle groups are involved in utilizing SEE

Therefore, this definition sort of excluded the type of striking technique from soft to tense like doing a double or triple jabs or a heavy cross needed a bit more time to retract compare to a jab.

False. Studies and videos have shown, all of the above use the stretch-shortening cycle to store elastic energy used in recoiling. All include storing elastic energy, using ground reaction force and transferring energy/force into the opponent, as does Chen Xiang in the Stanford study.

Yeung wrote:The following link on pull counter which might explain a bit on utilizing SEE and plyometric:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA0aakUoh5Y

The pull counter uses the stretch-shortening cycle to store elastic energy, as do the jab and cross. If you mean something else, please explain.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:21 am

With the usage of high speed cameras that can film 600-1000 frames (pictures) per a single second, we can now see the way the way flesh of a body, moves in waves along the bones as the arm is striking out.

In a normal strike, the bones of the arm strike out but all the flesh attached to the arm lags behind because of inertia.

A Fa Jin uses a movement of the spinal column (namely the lumbar and sacrum part of the spine) to try to mobilize the large amount of loose flesh in the abdomen upward to initiate a wave of flesh that travels up, around the shoulder and into the striking arm, timed with the bones of the arm, so that the bones and the flesh, arrive at the same exact time.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby Yeung on Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:57 am

D_Glenn wrote:With the usage of high speed cameras that can film 600-1000 frames (pictures) per a single second, we can now see the way the way flesh of a body, moves in waves along the bones as the arm is striking out.

In a normal strike, the bones of the arm strike out but all the flesh attached to the arm lags behind because of inertia.

A Fa Jin uses a movement of the spinal column (namely the lumbar and sacrum part of the spine) to try to mobilize the large amount of loose flesh in the abdomen upward to initiate a wave of flesh that travels up, around the shoulder and into the striking arm, timed with the bones of the arm, so that the bones and the flesh, arrive at the same exact time.


I think with careful observation and practice one can easily workout the difference between using the spine connecting the limbs and just coordinating the limbs. In a way, one can observe the differences between a strike from a static position and one that stretched back to strake.
Last edited by Yeung on Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:41 am

The power, or ability of springing the spine, is first figured out during the Standing practice, where you try to hold and customize your spine to feel comfortable in the position of Han Xiong Ba Bei, which makes your back look like a turtle shell. The more amount of time you can stand, the better. Because you’ve spent a lifetime of standing while your spine is in its normal position, so it takes some training. The Fa happens when you quickly move it from normal to turtle back, then return to normal.

The next leap is getting the bones of your spine to move in a coordinated manner and begin to jolt wave of flesh up from your abdomen out to your hand. Eventually the manner in which the bones move will become rote. It takes just a thought to spring it. Like a mousetrap it will always move in the same way.

Subtle Jins is the next step. A wave travels more easily through relaxed flesh, but for some reason, it also makes you more tired or feeling drained of energy. So when keeping muscles taut, you can practice more. But all the different Jins exist somewhere in between fully relaxed and fully taut. Which you can also equate to how much if your energy is being conserved or lost.

From the classic~ “First learn how the bones move, then learn how the flesh moves, then learn the energetic component.”

.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby Yeung on Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:47 am

johnwang wrote:
Yeung wrote:1. Store and then issue

I prefer to call it "compress and release". The key point is to "hide the compress at the end of your previous move".

You need time and space to do so. But in fighting, you don't always have time to do a 100% compressing. This is why people say that most Baiji guys may have bad temper, because they don't always have chance to complete their full "compress and release"


Here is an example from Xingyi, the Pao Quan is block and punch at the same time while the block is already stored up to strike:
Image
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby bailewen on Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:54 am

Baji fajin
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p.s. the name is pronounced "buy le when"
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:20 pm

I feel like Kao and some elbow strikes aren't really good examples of Fajin because it's more like just stepping and putting your weight on them. Still very effective, though.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby bailewen on Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:26 pm

Dude, you're seriously overthinking it.

"fajin" isn't even really a proper phrase in Chinese. You normally fa "a" jin. You got kaojin, pengjin, "zhou" jin. Whatever.

Seems like there's this weird idea that only "弹劲" is "jin". But that's just silly. In the gif I posted, we got some really good kaojin, some "zhengjing" and, I guess you gotta say "zhoujin", but to me, that elbow strike is mostly kao. Without the kaojing, there'd be no way to score the knockdown through the TKD chest protector.

Actually, based on the "bounce back", the retraction after strike, I'd say this even fits into the classic "fajin" category. Looks like I even managed a little "tanjin" in there.

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p.s. the name is pronounced "buy le when"
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby Yeung on Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:55 am

“Loading up punches” is an example of store and issue, the following is a link on telegraphing suggesting that loading up punches is a bad habit of telegraphing punches to increase power:



Master Wang mentioned this before, as during a fight one will not have enough time to stored up or loaded up. But I have provided a photo on Pao Quan using the blocking arm to store up energy to do a short distance strike. I think the pull counter in boxing is also a good example of pull back and load up.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:56 am

bailewen wrote:Dude, you're seriously overthinking it.

"fajin" isn't even really a proper phrase in Chinese. You normally fa "a" jin. You got kaojin, pengjin, "zhou" jin. Whatever.

Seems like there's this weird idea that only "弹劲" is "jin". But that's just silly. In the gif I posted, we got some really good kaojin, some "zhengjing" and, I guess you gotta say "zhoujin", but to me, that elbow strike is mostly kao. Without the kaojing, there'd be no way to score the knockdown through the TKD chest protector.

Actually, based on the "bounce back", the retraction after strike, I'd say this even fits into the classic "fajin" category. Looks like I even managed a little "tanjin" in there.

Image

It was a very good Kao with an elbow, but different from what I would consider to be a proper explosive Fajin. Not saying that you can't do it, just don't see it here.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby johnwang on Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:46 pm

Trying to protect my knees, I change my 3 miles running into 3 miles fast walking. This way I can train different footwork and different punch combo. Also if I hold 5 lb weight on both hands, I can also maintain my strength.

If you train like this daily, you may think about Fajin in the 1st 500 punches. After 500 punches, you just let your body to "flow" and you are not thinking about anything. If you do this everyday (I do this 6 days a week except Sunday that I have class), you may think about Fajin in the first 2 weeks. After 2 weeks, you just do it without thinking.

This make me to think about the XingYi internal 3 harmony, unification of

- heart and intention (心與意合 xin yu yi he).
- Intent and Qi (意與氣合 yi yu qi he).
- Qi and force (氣與力合 qi yu li he).

If my mind is completely blank, I don't have heart, intend. My force just come out without thinking, The term Fajin then no longer exist in my dictionary. The only thing that I have is "just do it and let my body to flow". I strongly believe that "the power that I think is not my true power. The power that I don't think is my true power".

As long as I can check on myself that

- Hand coordinate with foot (I find it's too difficult to check elbow coordinate with knee, shoulder coordinate with hip).
- All body parts start to move at the same time, and also stop at the same time.

I'm still on the correct path.
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby Yeung on Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:52 pm

The Secret to the Soccer Kick! - The Stretch Shortening Cycle
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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby Yeung on Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:56 pm

Striking with elasticity:

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Re: A definition of Fa Jin (發勁)

Postby bailewen on Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:46 am

as far as I can tell, he's just explaining why loading up on a punch (aka "telegraphing") lets you hit harder.

I mean..yeah. if you are willing to telegraph, you can definitely hit harder. :P
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