Weapon fight is the CMA goal

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Weapon fight is the CMA goal

Postby Bhassler on Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:12 pm

This is a great example of taking a valid starting point, like the connection between weapon and empty hand, and getting absolutely stupid about it-- like saying anything in the forms has anything to do with actually shooting a bow and arrow. You can find pictures of people shooting real Chinese war bows, and they don't do anything goofy like a reverse bow stance. A weird stance adds absolutely nothing to archery practice, nor does posing like you were drawing an invisible mime bow. Marceau Marbow. maybe?

Things like unbalancing, controlling the center, and firm, stable footwork make a ton of sense for weapons melee combat, where a moment of being off-balance can be fatal. Something like push hands makes a lot of sense as a training device in that context, as it allows you to focus on specific skills and body feeling without having to worry about/fixate on the big metal thing swinging at your head. Plus, you can do it in less space and with less risk, so you can start kids on it without having to worry about them murdering their siblings. It's also fun and not too dangerous for adults who actually have to do a job the next day (like farming or silk-merchanting). Practicing with live steel is dandy if you can afford to produce beater blades that can get knicked up, etc., but sharps would be too dangerous and maintenance intensive. So you might want to be able to develop sword (or other weapon) skills without needing to use actual weapons.

The (lack of) head cover is misleading as well. Covering up like a boxer works great for boxing, but not so much MMA. Why is that? Even boxers didn't always cover up their heads the way they do now. It's a reflection of a specific ruleset rather than some great learning about the nature of unarmed fighting in general. To wit: http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php ... hotos-way/

Forms themselves are fairly fluid, so it doesn't make sense to focus too much on the specific details as a source of archaeological insight. Similar to what rojcewiczj said, one should be looking at principles, strategy, and the developed jins, instead.

It also depends on the art in question. Gunpowder was in military use well before the end of the Ming dynasty. Climate, geography, urbanization, social class, intended usage, etc. all have to be considered when looking at why any given system is the way it is.
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Re: Weapon fight is the CMA goal

Postby marvin8 on Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:15 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:Similarly in barehand fighting the CMA postures give you a way to enter with your whole body and make useful contact to disrupt and damage your opponent in one action. ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwks7rlYgKo

Simply put, if you are going to move in with your entire weight then these postures are useful, otherwise they aren't. This is my experience.

There are many misrepresentations in that video including:

1. He's compares the mechanics of boxing's rear hand straight with Xing yi's lead hand punch.
2. A closer comparison is Xing yi's lead hand punch with the lead hand, Dempsey falling step. Power generation is similar.
3. Xing yi "is slower" relying on stepping, momentum and/or splitting which telegraphs movement. This can be "countered" with a kick, sidestep, etc., like "the straight right."
4. He compares pushing to striking. MMA also pushes.

Misrepresentation of straight right:

4. Weight should start on the back foot creating the largest trunk angular displacement, the farthest punch length and storing elastic energy.
5. He is not coordinating the kinetic chain and transfer of weight properly for the most power. There needs to be a sequential delay between waist, shoulders and hand.
6. Joints do not "face forward" until after weight is transferring to the front foot and waist and shoulder rotation.
7. Within the kinetic chain, one can change straight punch to uppercut, hook, knee, etc.
8. A jab is commonly used to position the opponent. After the opponent is double weighted, then the straight right is issued.
9. The straight right can be thrown as a lead punch (e.g., Floyd Mayweather), not requiring combinations.
10. Using the kinetic chain, the rear straight transfers more whole body weight (force) into the opponent than the Xing Yi lead hand punch or lead hand Dempsey falling step.
11. The rear straight, hook or lead hook are said to be the strongest punches because of transfer of weight (open/close rear/front kua, storing elastic energy) and torque (rotation). The javelin, baseball and football throws are evidence that the rear hand and kinetic chain generates more whole body power than the lead hand push-like movement (e.g., Xing yi, falling step jab).
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Weapon fight is the CMA goal

Postby sinkpoint on Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:16 pm

I practice Chinese archery, and the forms absolutely help. Teaching a beginner with no exposure to CMA is exponentially harder. Someone with basic exposures to the postures can already start at 60-70% of body alignment, and only details of arm and finger coordinations need to be taught.
Also reverse bow stance (elevation control), reverse riding stances (Parthian shot) are all important archery postures for infantry and mounted archery. Don't knock it til you've tried it.
Last edited by sinkpoint on Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Weapon fight is the CMA goal

Postby GrahamB on Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:17 am

As bhassler keenly observes, the point about protecting the head with your hands may be a red herring, but I think the general point of the video is valid - that barehand usage has evolved out of weapons in Chinese martial arts, particularly regarding Xing Yi and Wing Chun.

That Xing Yi comes from spear fighting is no surprise to anybody here. Or shouldn’t be.

Baji also has spear as a fundamental weapon, so I’d put a question mark against the sword and shield angle presented here. And I’m unconvinced that “deer hook knives” (or whatever you’d like to call them) in your Baguazhang are, or were ever, real weapons - they look too showy and impractical to me, and also exactly like the “fire wheels” used in religious/theatrical traditions. I could be wrong though. And as noted, that archery one looks like a bit of a simplistic explanation.

Wing Chun however is an interesting contender for weapons origin, and quite possible.

“Several English language accounts from the 1840s describe local militia in Guangdong being trained in the "double swords", short swords with a hook extending from the guard, and fitting into a single scabbard.[1]”

So, there would be thousands of militia trained and drilled in their usage at around the time that “martial arts teacher” was first becoming a viable commercial profession in Guangdong, the home of Wing Chun (thanks to Western influence). This is also the period running up to the publiuc emergence of Wing Chun as a martial art.

The double knives went on to be the weapon used by the police force in Guandong. This is when they may have become shorter to fit in a belt.

It’s also worth noting that the point at which the barehand application gets separated from the weapons use in all of these arts was a pretty damn long time ago (even if it’s not thousands of years, like some would like to believe), so there has been plenty of time for a separate evolution. Xing Yi is probably the oldest.

re: MMA.

On Saturday Robert Whittaker fought with his hands low and won. He looks like this :

Image

Khabib fought with his hands high and won:

Image

Hand high or low in MMA comes down to individual prefernece for strategy and style.
Last edited by GrahamB on Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Weapon fight is the CMA goal

Postby Trick on Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:54 am

johnwang wrote:When I asked my brother in law about the application. He told me it was used to shoot bow and arrow. Later on I found the same move in Yang Taiji bend bow and shoot arrow.
its bullworker simulation https://cn.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ORM=IRPRST
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Re: Weapon fight is the CMA goal

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:56 am

The goal depends on the focus of why the CMA is taught.

Historically it was to give some one the advantage by knowing or having some ability that the other does not have, expressed through
armed "with weapon" or un armed "without" in combat.

"Are they really making anything that much different compared to other old styles? Maybe not. Kung fu, after all, is just two hands, two feet and the body.

That's it. Different styles specialize on different techniques and usually these people don't pick them up.

They don't know how to use them. For example, tongbei is different than regular kung fu. It's the way they use the power, the way they deliver momentum and striking force.

That's what makes it outstanding. I don't say that these new styles are bad kung fu or anything like that. I always say 'Whatever you do, I don't want. Whatever I do and you don't know - that's how we win.

'"

GM, David Chin


http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/ ... rticle=661
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Re: Weapon fight is the CMA goal

Postby Bhassler on Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:28 am

sinkpoint wrote:I practice Chinese archery, and the forms absolutely help. Teaching a beginner with no exposure to CMA is exponentially harder. Someone with basic exposures to the postures can already start at 60-70% of body alignment, and only details of arm and finger coordinations need to be taught.
Also reverse bow stance (elevation control), reverse riding stances (Parthian shot) are all important archery postures for infantry and mounted archery. Don't knock it til you've tried it.


Excellent! Thank you for the counter-point. I'm not sure that would justify the inclusion of the postures in empty-hand forms, but as Graham points out, empty hand forms have had a long time to evolve since practical fighting utility was the only driving force in MA practice. Chinese bows, for example, were in use well after the introduction of gunpowder, and remained significant in military examinations maybe even moreso than in actual combat. You probably know more about the historical context of the Chinese war bow than I do-- would love to hear your thoughts on it.
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Re: Weapon fight is the CMA goal

Postby everything on Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:17 pm

hand fighting is for American football, sillies. Our modern "gladiator" sport (in the USA).

more seriously, didn't ever know that about wing chun and those weapons history. makes so much more sense, though. same with the xing yi movements.
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Re: Weapon fight is the CMA goal

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:04 am

in hockey they throw away their sticks when its time for a fight
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Re: Weapon fight is the CMA goal

Postby everything on Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:29 pm

I think under the unwritten rules, you're gonna get too much of a suspension or whatnot. but punch each other, lose some teeth, all good. play on.
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Re: Weapon fight is the CMA goal

Postby Trick on Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:24 am

. That Xing Yi comes from spear fighting is no surprise to anybody here. Or shouldn’t be.
Yes so some stories go...

When and where was Xin/Xingyiquan boxing techniques created out of spear combat ?
I’ve never practiced the spear, but practice XYQ. If i try to Imagine spear in my hand while doing my XYQ I have difficulty to really see the spear combat in the practice except maybe for the straight forwardness, but that comes around without any imagination of spear tactics....
I’ve done some staff practice in Aikido, the lesson that stuck with me from that was to keep the point of the staff pointing in such a way so opponent can’t see/measure the length and distance from it...same goes for sword
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Re: Weapon fight is the CMA goal

Postby GrahamB on Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:30 am

"When and where was Xin/Xingyiquan boxing techniques created out of spear combat ?"

The oral history is that it was when the losing Ming army was disbanded and returned to civilian life, their weapons taken away.
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Re: Weapon fight is the CMA goal

Postby Trick on Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:09 am

GrahamB wrote:"When and where was Xin/Xingyiquan boxing techniques created out of spear combat ?"

The oral history is that it was when the losing Ming army was disbanded and returned to civilian life, their weapons taken away.

Sound similar to the common story on Okinawan Karate, however there they supposedly took up peasant tools, such as the US police baton to fight swords and halberds
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Re: Weapon fight is the CMA goal

Postby BruceP on Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:17 pm

shovel - rake - hammer - axe - flail - fork - brush cutter - sickle - bale hook

heck, I'd bet on a pair of knitting needles over a larper's waster every time
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