"Long energy" in Yiquan?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

"Long energy" in Yiquan?

Postby Bao on Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:31 am

From the little I have learned about Yiquan, zhanzhuang is the core of both of the beginning stages and later practice. Just wondering if Yiquan has something like long movements practice, similar to large frame practice, tongbei type or exercises. Or anything similar to learn how to engage the spine and core.

In most of IMA, and in TCMA in general, "long movement (/energy)" or "Changjin" is developed first, and compact whole body movements comes later. "Long movements" is mostly regarded as necessary to understand how to, in a most practical and physical way, understand to engage your body from the core. This traditional thinking seems absent in Yiquan? Yes? No?
Last edited by Bao on Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7686
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: "Long energy" in Yiquan?

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:45 am

Yes.....8-)
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 3988
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: "Long energy" in Yiquan?

Postby Yeung on Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:44 am

From: Kang Gewu, Zhongguo Wushu Shiyong Daquan, Zhangguo Chunan She, 1990, 406 Ye (Practical Directory of Chinese Martial Arts,China Publication House, 1990, page 406)

He defined changjin 长劲 as a kind of strength that lengthening continuously, which is developed on the foundation of issuing and neutralizing strength. It can increase the distance of its initial issuing, and adjustable to changes. He quote the examples of An 按 and Ji 济in Taijiquan.

I also came across an article published in the Shaolin and Taiji magazine in 2015 spoke of the short, long, total issuing of strength of Taijiquan, but I did not see any YIquan article on the subject.
Yeung
Wuji
 
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: "Long energy" in Yiquan?

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:20 pm

Open’n close pulling and pushing is going on all the time during the exercises of YiQuan. YiQuan ZZ one don’t just stand there, it’s an very active exercise where one constantly act on forces acting upon ones body...That practice is expanded and explored further in Shili the next step of practice.....with the specific visualizations of forces to work upon makes of such an exercise that work from the core per automatic while taking care of happenings in one immediate all around surrounding..(Hunyuan-li is developed)
Tongbei like exercises there are....But the specific with YiQuan is building heightening awareness so to being able to act/react with superior timing, correct body conditioning comes along with it without specifically thinking about that...

According to the founder Wang Xiangzhai, practitioners put their (non)focus on Xing, the exercises became just as gymnastics lacking relevance to combat...
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 3988
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: "Long energy" in Yiquan?

Postby Bao on Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:08 am

Yeung wrote:I also came across an article published in the Shaolin and Taiji magazine in 2015 spoke of the short, long, total issuing of strength of Taijiquan, but I did not see any YIquan article on the subject.


Ok, thanks. Just wondering about exercises.

Trick wrote:Open’n close pulling and pushing is going on all the time during the exercises of YiQuan.


Opening and closing is everywhere, long frame as well as short frame styles. Long energy is not "open", it's about really getting the power/strength/energy out of the body and from the center of the body. Think you could describe it as to stretch from the core and out. If you only practice small compact movements, you might find that you restrict your movements. Some people who only do small er frames tend to restrict themselves and even becomes strict. Their movements can also lack a certain liveliness.

Tongbei like exercises there are....


So? What exercises? How much are those emphasised?

But the specific with YiQuan is building heightening awareness so to being able to act/react with superior timing, correct body conditioning comes along with it without specifically thinking about that...


You don't need to think about anything like "that". Why do believe that it's about "thinking"? ??? :-\
It's something practical. It's about your own ability to use your body well, and about your potential to move and make full use of your body movements whenever you need it. "Thinking" has nothing do do with it.

According to the founder Wang Xiangzhai, practitioners put their (non)focus on Xing, the exercises became just as gymnastics lacking relevance to combat...


Yes, Wang studied XY amongst other things. Wouldn't it be more likely that a practitioner could reach the same level as him if he or she practiced the same way and studied the same way that Wang did instead of just practicing in the way how he taught? ;)
Last edited by Bao on Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7686
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: "Long energy" in Yiquan?

Postby lineofintent on Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:18 am

There is long energy work in Yi Quan.

Often the Shr Li is taught very long in the early stages to make the force extension and pathway clear.

From big to small, from small to hidden, just as with Xingyiquan.
lineofintent
Wuji
 
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:43 am

Re: "Long energy" in Yiquan?

Postby Bao on Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:07 pm

lineofintent wrote:Often the Shr Li is taught very long in the early stages to make the force extension and pathway clear.


Guessed it should be so. Good to know. Thanks.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7686
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: "Long energy" in Yiquan?

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:54 pm

Bao wrote:
Yeung wrote:I also came across an article published in the Shaolin and Taiji magazine in 2015 spoke of the short, long, total issuing of strength of Taijiquan, but I did not see any YIquan article on the subject.


Ok, thanks. Just wondering about exercises.

Trick wrote:Open’n close pulling and pushing is going on all the time during the exercises of YiQuan.


Opening and closing is everywhere, long frame as well as short frame styles. Long energy is not "open", it's about really getting the power/strength/energy out of the body and from the center of the body. Think you could describe it as to stretch from the core and out. If you only practice small compact movements, you might find that you restrict your movements. Some people who only do small er frames tend to restrict themselves and even becomes strict. Their movements can also lack a certain liveliness.

Tongbei like exercises there are....


So? What exercises? How much are those emphasised?

But the specific with YiQuan is building heightening awareness so to being able to act/react with superior timing, correct body conditioning comes along with it without specifically thinking about that...


You don't need to think about anything like "that". Why do believe that it's about "thinking"? ??? :-\
It's something practical. It's about your own ability to use your body well, and about your potential to move and make full use of your body movements whenever you need it. "Thinking" has nothing do do with it.

According to the founder Wang Xiangzhai, practitioners put their (non)focus on Xing, the exercises became just as gymnastics lacking relevance to combat...


Yes, Wang studied XY amongst other things. Wouldn't it be more likely that a practitioner could reach the same level as him if he or she practiced the same way and studied the same way that Wang did instead of just practicing in the way how he taught? ;)
Tongbei-like exercises are mostly done as warmup loosening up..however Tongbeiquan
exercises do also contain its specific visualizations making direct relevance to combat.
Again visualizations while exercising in CMAs such as YiQuan, Xingyiquan, Tajiiquan and similar is of outmost importance, without that specific the exercises are merely forms of gymnastics lacking direct relevance to combat..
But gymnastics are fine, its good for ones overall health....
However doing exercises completely without thinking/mind activity/awareness even if it’s just for gymnastics sound not wise....

Big and small frame division is actually totally unnecessary, the experienced know there is no such thing as big or small frame, there’s only “all” frame. However If one have not experienced the small in the big, the big in the small this is not easily understood.
For an onlooker YiQuan methods may look small frame, and “unlively”, once again that because the onlooker don’t understand the method of the mind work going on when exercising.
The method is very active, there should be awareness at every single point of ones body, every single point listening.
For this to be possible proper relaxation is required there’s no stiffness build up. With proper mind work one will automatically get to the core of it.
Long and short energy. As I mentioned open and close I also mentioned pulling and pushing. Since you made a comment on open and close but not pull and push I’ll guess you are not familiar with that method. However it’s within the pull and push visualization long and short energy are exercised. I won’t try go into describing the specifics of the exercises here. The same method is also found in Xingyiquan as well as others. This method hold very important awareness practice directly tied to essential combat methods...

Actually the YiQuan methods are quite simple, but not as “the” simple most seem to perceive it to be. Its method hits the core of CMA quite directly, and does not take a long time of practice to gain significantly from.
Last edited by Trick on Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 3988
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: "Long energy" in Yiquan?

Postby Bao on Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:50 am

Trick wrote:exercises do also contain its specific visualizations making direct relevance to combat.
Again visualizations while exercising in CMAs such as YiQuan, Xingyiquan, Tajiiquan and similar is of outmost importance, without that specific the exercises are merely forms of gymnastics lacking direct relevance to combat..


It takes much more than visualizations to make something “martial”. Everyone nowadays speak about visualizations. I find all of this highly overrated. So many people try to visualize things and nothing in their movements or body actually changes. It’s all in their head.

Big and small frame division is actually totally unnecessary, the experienced know there is no such thing as big or small frame, there’s only “all” frame.



Well, if that differentiation has meaning or not depends on who you are and what you need in your personal stage of development. The experienced and advanced practitioner will certainly contain everything within one “frame”. When you reach that level, “frame” has very little value. However, the different frames, exercises and modes of practiced are not designed for the practitioner who is already there. They are meant as exercises to lead people to that goal and in a specific order. Long frame exercises and small frame exercises have very different goals. Long frame practice will help you to open up the joints, it should be bold and lively. Correct small frame practice should, IMO, teach the body tighter whole body movement and the precision of angles, and teach your body where your angles and alignment have as much natural strength as possible. These are different aspects of body arrangement and body movement that needs to be put together. But when you learn something that is new to the body, it’s often better to break things up and teach aspects separately. If you try to learn everything at once and at the same time, there’s a good chance that you won’t really come to an understanding of anything. A good teacher can see what the student lacks and will teach exercises according to the weaknesses he sees. Just like a good doctor will make a recipe according to specific symptoms and not give a pill that is supposed to cure all diseases. So of course different exercises are designed to teach different things. If you don’t see the difference, then it’s you who lack experience.

Actually the YiQuan methods are quite simple, but not as “the” simple most seem to perceive it to be.


That is the feeling I have watching how it’s mostly taught here. It should be more complex.

Its method hits the core of CMA quite directly, and does not take a long time of practice to gain significantly from.


I don’t believe that one medicine can cure all diseases. Many years ago I believed that one form and one type of exercise could cover everything necessary to gain real skill. That was what I was taught. However, as I started to teach and as I learned other things outside my main art, I understood that different people develop differently. As a teacher, my students would benefit better and learn faster if things were broken up, structured and taught separately. And later when one aspect is understood, it could be put together with other aspects. One building block at a time.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7686
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: "Long energy" in Yiquan?

Postby Trick on Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:23 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:exercises do also contain its specific visualizations making direct relevance to combat.
Again visualizations while exercising in CMAs such as YiQuan, Xingyiquan, Tajiiquan and similar is of outmost importance, without that specific the exercises are merely forms of gymnastics lacking direct relevance to combat..


It takes much more than visualizations to make something “martial”. Everyone nowadays speak about visualizations. I find all of this highly overrated. So many people try to visualize things and nothing in their movements or body actually changes. It’s all in their head.

the visualization method train the neural system most efficiently, the other way is to actually interact with forces applied on you(sparring/fighting as examples) ... life science nowadays are looking more and more into and researching visualization methods, don’t underestimate the power of the mind....but unfortuanately that what’s often happen in CMA where practitioners are locked in power Issuing stuff, stuff that makes one feel and look strong while perFORMing....Which was the problem Wang Xiangzhai addressed
Last edited by Trick on Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 3988
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: "Long energy" in Yiquan?

Postby Trick on Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:28 pm

Bao wrote:
Big and small frame division is actually totally unnecessary, the experienced know there is no such thing as big or small frame, there’s only “all” frame.



Well, if that differentiation has meaning or not depends on who you are and what you need in your personal stage of development. The experienced and advanced practitioner will certainly contain everything within one “frame”. When you reach that level, “frame” has very little value. However, the different frames, exercises and modes of practiced are not designed for the practitioner who is already there. They are meant as exercises to lead people to that goal and in a specific order. Long frame exercises and small frame exercises have very different goals. Long frame practice will help you to open up the joints, it should be bold and lively. Correct small frame practice should, IMO, teach the body tighter whole body movement and the precision of angles, and teach your body where your angles and alignment have as much natural strength as possible. These are different aspects of body arrangement and body movement that needs to be put together. But when you learn something that is new to the body, it’s often better to break things up and teach aspects separately. If you try to learn everything at once and at the same time, there’s a good chance that you won’t really come to an understanding of anything. A good teacher can see what the student lacks and will teach exercises according to the weaknesses he sees. Just like a good doctor will make a recipe according to specific symptoms and not give a pill that is supposed to cure all diseases. So of course different exercises are designed to teach different things. If you don’t see the difference, then it’s you who lack experience.
.
As i said, the division is unnecessary, that will say if one know the right practice method from beginning then one will come to know the small in the big and the big in the small without having to learn many forms, for the experienced the outer frames will be expressed according to how it fits the moment and liking. If one don’t know the method the division will at best make the learning process unnecessary long, but most commonly students will stray away learning wrong methods.
It is said that Wang Xiangzhai was respected but not very liked, well he taught rather openly the method that was to be held secret, those teachers who knew the method and kept to the tradition of keeping it secret only teaching it to the most trusted students were not pleased, and those masters who didn’t know the secret but where teaching as if they knew secrets and revealing it by making their teaching methods overly complex were also not pleased.....
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 3988
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am


Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests