Response to a low single leg

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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby Giles on Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:27 am

jaime_g wrote:I wouldnt try to face plant a low single because head in the floor doesnt mean you stopped the low single, the shoulder drive can still take you down.


I agree, which is why I said simultaneously step aside and swivel. But it's just a suggestion responding to the terms of Dyspirido's question.

And basically any 'solution' is doomed to fail if you don't respond early enough and get the timing right. A 'non-thinking' awareness of the situation and an opponent's movements and responding in time is something one can only develop with lots of appropriate training/practice. 101.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby dspyrido on Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:16 am

To summarize the posts:

1. Don't be there when a shoot happens. Let's call that great foot work. Makes sense although a good wrestling reattacker will keep going unless they are stopped which is tough as it's faster to run forward than backward or sidewards.
2. Full sprawl where both legs kick out. Note I said full sprawl. If a full sprawl does not hit the opponents back then it just goes straight to the ground. If it hits the back then there might be a chance to control the attack. 1/4 & 1/2 sprawl will really struggle against a low single if the ankle gets caught as the attacker is below the hips.
3. Spin or kick out (guessing from the shuaijiow mentions) but with momentum of a low single this might be difficult especially with a re-attack.

I picked the low single for a good reason. High double legs, high singles, even some low double legs can be defended by framing up or just straight whamming with a nicely timed knee. A low single is difficult because unless the defender can get their hands to near the floor level then it's hard to block.

The further problem with a low single is not the low single but the reattack that follows. In wrestling they don't grab for one leg but the next and keep going until stopped/countered or catches catch can.

This is a great video on reattacks. Jump to 8 minutes in for some examples of downblock & reattack.



So back to the question. No CMA/IMA/TMA responses? This means:

1. It was a blind spot & no response was trained for. All CMA/TMA/IMA is dead against a good wrestler unless they can get that well timed strike.
2. The CMA/IMA/TMA do a FULL sprawl but somehow got dropped in the curriculum or it's only found in shuajiow as a higher 1/4 or 1/2 sprawl.
3. There are moves that don't normally appear in the western wrestling world and perhaps hidden in plain site.

It was the occurrence of moves that I had NOT learnt in (western) wrestling/grappling that came out when wrestling that made me realize that I had learnt things that worked but I had been blind to them.

Rediscovered these tactics & training methods in CMA/IMA is a gift that keeps on giving. Hence the line of questioning.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby GrahamB on Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:27 am

I think it's unlikely that a low single would exists without a strong wrestling culture, and (MOST IMPORTANTLY) mats on the ground. On rough, stoney ground, or concrete/stone, shooting for a low single just wouldn't occur to anybody who values the skin on their knees.

And if CMA originates in battlefield weapons scenarios.... low singling a spear man is just not an option. It wouldn't even occur to anybody.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:52 am

dspyrido wrote:To summarize the posts:

1. Don't be there when a shoot happens. Let's call that great foot work. Makes sense although a good wrestling reattacker will keep going unless they are stopped which is tough as it's faster to run forward than backward or sidewards.
2. Full sprawl where both legs kick out. Note I said full sprawl. If a full sprawl does not hit the opponents back then it just goes straight to the ground. If it hits the back then there might be a chance to control the attack. 1/4 & 1/2 sprawl will really struggle against a low single if the ankle gets caught as the attacker is below the hips.
3. Spin or kick out (guessing from the shuaijiow mentions) but with momentum of a low single this might be difficult especially with a re-attack.

I picked the low single for a good reason. High double legs, high singles, even some low double legs can be defended by framing up or just straight whamming with a nicely timed knee. A low single is difficult because unless the defender can get their hands to near the floor level then it's hard to block.

The further problem with a low single is not the low single but the reattack that follows. In wrestling they don't grab for one leg but the next and keep going until stopped/countered or catches catch can.

This is a great video on reattacks. Jump to 8 minutes in for some examples of downblock & reattack.



So back to the question. No CMA/IMA/TMA responses? This means:

1. It was a blind spot & no response was trained for. All CMA/TMA/IMA is dead against a good wrestler unless they can get that well timed strike.
2. The CMA/IMA/TMA do a FULL sprawl but somehow got dropped in the curriculum or it's only found in shuajiow as a higher 1/4 or 1/2 sprawl.
3. There are moves that don't normally appear in the western wrestling world and perhaps hidden in plain site.

It was the occurrence of moves that I had NOT learnt in (western) wrestling/grappling that came out when wrestling that made me realize that I had learnt things that worked but I had been blind to them.

Rediscovered these tactics & training methods in CMA/IMA is a gift that keeps on giving. Hence the line of questioning.

I wrote a TCMA response about YOUR art. I have used Maoxilian and Jingang Daodui successfully a number of times against opponents trying to shoot for a single leg.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby johnwang on Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:26 pm

What will happen when a wrestler meets this guy?

One good kick on the face when you shoot in may kill you. Do you want to take that risk if you are a wrestler when you are not compete on the mat?

We should have faith in our CMA.



If you shoot in at her leg, she will chop your head off. ;D

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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby dspyrido on Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:10 pm

GrahamB wrote:I think it's unlikely that a low single would exists without a strong wrestling culture, and (MOST IMPORTANTLY) mats on the ground. On rough, stoney ground, or concrete/stone, shooting for a low single just wouldn't occur to anybody who values the skin on their knees.

And if CMA originates in battlefield weapons scenarios.... low singling a spear man is just not an option. It wouldn't even occur to anybody.


It seems to me that this is a commonly accepted fallacy.

  • Wrestling culture existed well before the invention of mats & double sprung floors. Sand is dirt cheap. (pun is intended)
  • Wrestling was taught all around the world as part of most cultures that carried battlefield weapons. China was no exception.
  • The birth of the open public submission grappling sports was founded in a culture that lived and breathed with spear, sword and shield. There's plenty of examples of low techniques & even arguments about how it is not aligned to battlefield tactics but that did not stop the development of low take down techniques.
  • CMA has several examples of styles with ground based techniques so mats, rocks etc. didn't stop them - ditangquan (tumble), zimen quan, fujien ground boxing, dishuquan (dog) & many others

It is more likely that these lower more intense techniques were lost as people went scholar boxing.

I am seeing the grittier nastier training & moves still exist. Just not commonly taught.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby dspyrido on Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:40 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:I wrote a TCMA response about YOUR art. I have used Maoxilian and Jingang Daodui successfully a number of times against opponents trying to shoot for a single leg.


Sorry not ignoring you. Yes there are several moves that I have used found in xylh, qinna & sj that have worked in freestyle wrestling against half decent wrestlers. Cat washes it's face is good for fast foot movement & used for hop back to the long stance (along with head control can stuff a low single). Then there are others like dragon & "picking up the stone" which also come into play to avoid re-attacks.

The idea was to explore if others have other methods that I can open my eyes to.

johnwang wrote:What will happen when a wrestler meets this guy?

One good kick on the face when you shoot in may kill you. Do you want to take that risk if you are a wrestler when you are not compete on the mat?

We should have faith in our CMA.


Good point. The kick referred to as "tearing the bark of the tree" can do some damage on someone who is reaching at ankle height. Timed well and it is nasty. Timed badly and the low single will take the balance.

But that brings up a variation to the move where person is leaning back (I always thought of it to avoid a high kick). Now that I think about it - if caught in a well timed low single I would fall backwards.

On the way down a stabbing kick or even after falling on the ground a stomp/up kick executed from ground is nasty. A good wrestler will need to do a quick leg lace to avoid foot to the face. Moves found here for example can make things interesting:



As for your wife's photo - even holding that halberd will be enough for someone to reconsider their life's choices.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby GrahamB on Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:56 am

I didn't say wrestling culture didn't exist before mats ;D

That's your falicy, right there.

In many folk wrestling styles going to the ground and being pinned, or even simply touching the ground with a hand, signifies the end of a bout and a winner.

I'd recommend the Hero with a thousand holds podcast to learn more about this and why:
https://thousandholds.net/podcast/
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:10 pm

No worries, I just didn't want to get lumped together with sll those that claim to do TCMA, but don't. Definitely check out Jingang Daodui. I blinded someone for five minutes with that. Scary power!
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:07 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:No worries, I just didn't want to get lumped together with sll those that claim to do TCMA, but don't. Definitely check out Jingang Daodui. I blinded someone for five minutes with that. Scary power!


You realize that everyone can see the videos of you sparring, right? ???
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:07 pm

In 1983 US national SC tournament in Ohio State University, many Ohio State University wrestling team members competed in that tournament. During the heavy weight championship fight my opponent was from Ohio State University wrestling team. He tried to attack me with single leg twice. In both rounds, I took him down by "downward pulling" within 7 seconds. That was the easiest rounds that I ever had in my tournament years.

4 years ago, a group of wrestlers wrestled on the grass in Dinosaur Cave Park, Pismo Beach, California. I asked the wrestling coach if I could wrestle with him (I was 69 and the coach was 24. I weight 175 lb and the coach weight about 220 lb). The coach also attacked me with single leg. I used reverse head lock (guillotine) to took him down until he taped out. That could be the last round in my life that I had wrestled against a stranger (don't want to get injury in old age).

When someone uses single leg on you, he has to cover a good distance to reach to your leg. Your hands can either press down on the back of his neck (let him to kiss the dirt), or reverse head lock around his neck. Since you will have body weight on top of him, you should have the advantage.

I don't like my opponent to use double legs on me. The SC stance is always wide enough so my opponent cannot reach to my back leg.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:28 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:No worries, I just didn't want to get lumped together with sll those that claim to do TCMA, but don't. Definitely check out Jingang Daodui. I blinded someone for five minutes with that. Scary power!


You realize that everyone can see the videos of you sparring, right? ???

Unfortunately I was never able to get any video of me actually sparring. Fencing, yes. You're referring to footage of me demoing some techniques against a resisting beginner student that keeps trying to run away...
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby zrm on Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:12 pm

Well I always thought that Shaolin Toad style was made up for a bit of fun but maybe the Shaoling Monks invented it as a modern response to the western wrestling low single leg.



What to do you think GrahamB? Bouncing mid air sprawl be an adequate defence for low single leg takedown attempt? Can't get grab my legs if they are behind me and you have to watch out for the bouncing head butt counter attack. You also have to try not to laugh.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby GrahamB on Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:39 am

There's nothing wrong with sprawling, I'm just not sure you have to pretend to be a frog to do it ;D
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby zrm on Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:19 am

GrahamB wrote:There's nothing wrong with sprawling, I'm just not sure you have to pretend to be a frog to do it ;D


Yes, but how can you *really* be sure without pressure testing it on the mat first?
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