Response to a low single leg

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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby Bao on Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:03 am

dspyrido wrote:This is a low single leg:
Image
What is your TMA/CMA/IMA/personal response to one of these?


I really don't get the fuzz about this one. Lift the left leg up, (preferably by first stepping to the side with the right leg,) and just step away. How hard can it be? It's not as you can't see it coming. :-\
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby Bhassler on Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:31 am

dspyrido wrote:
Bhassler wrote:If he does it like the collegiate wrestler that Graham linked to, I'll have several months of knee rehab to contemplate why I was stupid enough to get in a fight with a world-class combat athlete 25 years younger than me. I'll probably end up quitting my job, selling everything, and living in the back of a van in a hippy commune somewhere in the Pacific Northwest. I'll live with a girl who's not very smart or pretty, but at least she's young and happy and seems to like me.

All of which is to say it's a silly question. What's the context? Sport or street? Size of opponent? Skill? At what point in the engagement? Are there other people around? Is anyone drunk? Carrying groceries? Weapons? Etc.


I also didn't mention if they were wearing green underwear, were unshaven and it smelled of Monday.

You have been on this site for over a decade. Do I really need to spell out the context?

Ok I'll try. If you have ever been shown a technique that fits the context of the question then share it. If you have done something on the matt then go ahead and voice it. If you have a theoretical move then don't be afraid to explore it.

As for the collegiate wrestler part - the rehab is only if a technique is badly executed. It's like saying never box with a boxer because you're going to get knocked out. If you have 0 options then yes. We are exploring options.


Yes, I've been on the site a long time. And you've been doing martial arts and actually applying them long enough that you should know it's not about which technique one does or doesn't have in their form, or whether a technique "works". It's really about understanding the conditions necessary that will either allow a response to work or cause it to fail. If you just ask "what's your technique", you get responses like this:

Bao wrote:
dspyrido wrote:This is a low single leg:
Image
What is your TMA/CMA/IMA/personal response to one of these?


I really don't get the fuzz about this one. Lift the left leg up, (preferably by first stepping to the side with the right leg,) and just step away. How hard can it be? It's not as you can't see it coming. :-\


Yes, and no. Everyone's got a plan until Mike Tyson punches them in the face. Why does the technique in the OP work? I mean, the guy's a professional fighter, right? He's not set up to block it because he also has to worry about getting punched in the face, and looking for his opportunity to do the same to his opponent. The defender's not just rooting or evading or sprawling, he's kind of in between maybe thinking he could do either one, but by the time his brain catches up, it's already too late to make a decision. Also, look at how far the shooter drives through. If you're not able to get completely off line, stepping out won't work, as he'll just catch your standing leg or whatever grip he has on your lifted leg to pull you around and down. If you think you can just root, well, maybe. It's a lot of force, and the shooter knows enough to add a lateral push with his head along with the forward drive.

If you look at Graham's clip, the guy starts with a head grab to force a favorable position in his opponent's body to make the takedown easier. So, again, it's not about the technique (which shows amazing execution), it's how the guy sets it up. If you watch videos of GSP, you can see that he has a slightly faster reaction time than most of his opponents. That's nice, but what makes it deadly is that he's balanced and poised enough to act on the opportunities when he sees them. Similar with Jon Jones. He's got incredible balance that allows him to make use of his long limbs and strength.

So if you want to have a conversation that's meaningful, it might include not just the technique, but what makes the technique work, how you would train the necessary execution and attributes, and how you maintain the necessary conditions for the technique to actually work. Which brings us back to context. Options are different depending on what your environment is, who you're dealing with, and what you're trying to accomplish.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby Giles on Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:14 am

I like B. Hassler’s range of solutions, especially the hippy van. And more seriously, the idea behind it that it all depends, and any ‘great move’ can fail totally if you screw it up or it’s the wrong great move for the variables at that moment.

That said, as a tai chi guy I would tend to the following... As a low shoot comes in, either single or double leg, I do two things simultaneously: 1. I respond with my centre to the attacker’s centre, in the process stepping out of the line of attack to the left or right and at the same time swivelling my body to (roughly) face the attacker; 2. I touch the back of his head/neck quite gently, not trying to block or brake his momentum but instead accompanying and then actually helping him a little in his forward and downward trajectory. In the last phase I help a little more, bending the curve downwards, and if it’s good, his face ends up literally on the floor. Then proceed further as appropriate.

That’s a lot of words but the action can be as fast and hopefully as fluent as the attack. The timing can work, in other words you don’t get stuck behind the loop, if you start to release your centre, start ‘falling internally’ for want of a better term, as the opponent starts moving his centre. You don’t know what’s happening, you don’t know which way you’ll move, but within yourself you are already in motion. That increases the chances of succesful blending/interception/neutralization etc.
If I step out to the left then of course I’ll be swivelling to the right and using my left hand to touch his neck. If I step out to the right, I’ll be swivelling to the left and using my right hand. I have long arms, which helps a lot here. And as I go deeper to assist his face into the floor, I don’t stick my ass out but basically go into a ‘kua squat’ with my back fairly straight.

Essentially it’s a lu response. Similar to a sprawl, but if it's good I don't actually sprawl because I remain on my feet; I don't use the opponent's body for support at any moment, I don't put knees on the ground.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby Bao on Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:06 pm

Bhassler wrote:Yes, and no. Everyone's got a plan until Mike Tyson punches them in the face. Why does the technique in the OP work? I mean, the guy's a professional fighter, right? He's not set up to block it because he also has to worry about getting punched in the face, and looking for his opportunity to do the same to his opponent. The defender's not just rooting or evading or sprawling, he's kind of in between maybe thinking he could do either one, but by the time his brain catches up, it's already too late to make a decision. Also, look at how far the shooter drives through. If you're not able to get completely off line, stepping out won't work, as he'll just catch your standing leg or whatever grip he has on your lifted leg to pull you around and down. If you think you can just root, well, maybe. It's a lot of force, and the shooter knows enough to add a lateral push with his head along with the forward drive.


Sure, when you see it it's easy to know. As always. I have a feeling that he expected a more common shoot. Seems as he started to counter. I don't know. But I still think it's odd that as an experienced fighter he just stood there and didn't move. Yes, if you don't get off his line he can still target you. But at least you should try to move. Rooting is not a good idea if your opponent has a good forward momentum, moving is safer and makes it easier to counter. Maybe he was tired.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby GrahamB on Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:59 pm

Bao wrote: I don't know


So you've realised that, but have you considered just stopping there and not saying anything else?
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby Bao on Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:08 pm

GrahamB wrote:So you've realised that, but have you considered just stopping there and not saying anything else?


Have you realised that you as a self-acclaimed "expert" on this field could actually come up with something intelligent to say? :o
Last edited by Bao on Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:11 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby jaime_g on Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:00 pm

dspyrido wrote:
That would be great to hear more about. Can you or anyone doing SJ post examples of these moves?


Hard to do during this partial lockdown but I'll try

In the meantime, if you have a partner and want to try an easy one let him do the low single. Keep your weight in the attacked foot and step over his body with the free leg doing gai bu. It's a nice scramble and several things can happen, like a kickout escape or a slide threating a back take.

I prefer to keep the attacked leg heavy and work from there, it's too easy to change into a high single if you offer a light leg and I dont like sprawls

I wouldnt try to face plant a low single because head in the floor doesnt mean you stopped the low single, the shoulder drive can still take you down.


About the video, that was Couture vs Toney. Toney was a boxer without mma experience and had zero chances of surviving on his feet against Couture. Couture did the low single low from a huge distance knowing that. It was over in a few seconds.
Last edited by jaime_g on Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby johnwang on Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:41 pm

dspyrido wrote:That would be great to hear more about. Can you or anyone doing SJ post examples of these moves?

If we are talking about leg escape, I'm afraid that because your opponent's momentum, even if you may escape your leading leg, your opponent's can still get your back leg.



But after you have escaped your leading leg, if you use under hook leg lift, it can be a good counter (the 1st single leg counter that I have learned).
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby GrahamB on Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:17 am

Self proclaimed Bao? I'm not an expert, not even a self proclaimed one. ;D My only ambition is not to make everybody on the board dumber every time I talk. It's a low bar, I know, but some still miss it spectacularly ;D

If people wanted to know what I thought I’d probably do this:

If you have time, and he’s already done the shot, and is on the ground holding your ankle then the quickest way you get your leg out is to turn 180 degrees, and pull it out while pushing down on his head with your hand. Pushing on his head gives you a push pull dynamic and makes it possible to extract your leg and stops him following you.

If find that works a lot of the time ( but against really good opponents maybe not), but sometimes you’ve got a guy that just won’t let go - then you’ve got this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6imzpyyPTk

This is a 360 spin variation option if they are circling more:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpTSBTYYi1c


If he’s actually picked your leg up and is standing then it’s different, Cejudo (the guy in the OP) shows a defence here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzUYQrDNm0w



Or you could think about prevention before it even happens. You can’t rely on your eyes because it’s too quick to see - some good ideas here on using touch as a defence (quite Tai Chi like)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3ZmS5zxFEA


But we really have to get out of the frame of mind that - he does technique A so I counter with technique B.

What matters most is timing. If your timing is off then none of it will work. Timing is what separates the good from the really great in sports. For timing you need sparring.
Last edited by GrahamB on Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:22 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby bailewen on Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:25 am

Don't be so modest. You got a fucking BJJ black belt.

That's not joke. I mean, I do appreciate that you still come off as a low key hobbit and all, but just sayin.

We're on a thread discussing a basic take down and the IMA nerds are accusing the BJJ black belt of lacking "expertise". That's not self proclaimed. I forget what school you were at, but I remember it was pretty damn solid. Some super high level expert proclaimed you "black belt worthy".

Fer fucks sake already. A black belt in BJJ doesn't make you got but it makes you pretty damn "expert" at something. I mean maybe just a total loser at the actual pro level, but on a board of, let's face it, a bunch of TMA hobbiests, it's pretty damn solid credentials.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby GrahamB on Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:57 am

haha, well that was a smack in the face to raise me from my slumbers. King Theoden is back! Thanks ;D
Last edited by GrahamB on Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby fuga on Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:57 pm

This place cracks me up.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby Strange on Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:56 pm

If an opponent can reach your lower leg like that,
you lost already: his movement too fast and your reaction is too slow
imo, c/ima should be "before it happens", and not really "what can i do, if it happens"
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby johnwang on Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:05 pm

Strange wrote:imo, c/ima should be "before it happens", and not really "what can i do, if it happens"

You should be able to handle in both situations.

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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby Strange on Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:25 pm

sure, John.
let me stay out of messy situations, if you don't mind
so much for listening, i guess... no, you can't get there, from here :)
Last edited by Strange on Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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