the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:It's a good thread because I think dealing with the ankle pick is a good place to start addressing some of the reasons we don't see TCMA doing well in high level fights.

This is a glaring gap in they way many people have trained CMA especially if not following a more rigorous training method.

It is the "we don't go to the ground" approach to training. Then for some reason this is interpreted as "no one else must go to the ground". Eventually it must become a "let's not bother with these ground level attacks".

It's a myth. There are CMA styles that go to the ground. There are also methods that were invented to counter these people in the arms race of martial arts.

This occurred to me when wrestling with wrestlers that these methods exist. This got me asking the question & realizing that there are a lot of moves even done in forms that just seem to be practiced mindlessly yet deep down can handle ankle height attacks.

Just look at this fellow as a great example:



Can he handle a wrestlers momentum of a low shoot? If he were to apply a hop back to stuff the attack and then apply some of the moves seen here then I would say yes.

zrm wrote:Maybe I just haven't found the right teachers? I've had some amazing chinese martial art teachers that have insane biomechanics that make them almost seem supernatural. But when I go through libraries of Chinese martial art instructionals I see millions on forms and foundation drills.

Looking for the right teacher is a part of the problem. All the best CMA instructors I have had did not have a right teacher but many right teachers that they actively sought out. They would learn & absorb but then they took extra steps and found the right groups of people to practice refine and improve. The stand out ones turned what they learnt into something personal & potentially unique due to their own focus and ability - not their sifu's.

In the same theme - there is a point where gathering belts or ranks is irrelevant & only impresses noobs. There is a point where lineage is irrelevant & does not excuse testing. There is also a point where there are no wise old sifu's around but just other people to practice with.

zrm wrote:I would say whether the counter to the low single leg was "chinese" or not doesn't matter, as long as it was good counter. The only problem with that is we are on a forum that focuses explicitly on the Chinese internal martial arts.

There are lots of good counters to a low single that are shown & practiced in wrestling. There are great videos out there capturing the training methods and they are commonly taught in most wrestling gyms.

I don't just do IMA. I cross train and test with many people. What I have realised is that there are training methods in the CMA/IMA world that are not being posted on youtube but are sitting there waiting to be rediscovered.

NOTE: I am not rejecting the western methods at all. The objective here is to provide some voice to the CMA/IMA/whatever approaches and to explore alternatives.

BTW - Erik Paulson is a great example of someone who has trained far and wide and gets it. He pulls in many methods from around the world. He has some interesting responses to a low single from an MMA perspective.

Paulson is always a great example for everything

Here is one of his versions of the low single, beautiful as always

https://youtu.be/g9UmFaRXxJE

dspyrido wrote:

GrahamB wrote:I didn't say wrestling culture didn't exist before mats

True. You only said ...

GrahamB wrote:I think it's unlikely that a low single would exists without a strong wrestling culture, and (MOST IMPORTANTLY) mats on the ground.

So China did not have a strong wrestling culture because they didn't have mats & these "warriors" were worried about skimming their knees. Therefore it would not occur to them to be concerned with a low single.

Now you say you have decades of TC & XY experience. Why not provide a response to the original question with this frame? Or where you never taught or did it never occur to you that in CMA there might be responses to a low single such as the suggestions that have already been posted?

Is there any chance you can just stop being 'that guy' for like 2 seconds?

It's so annoying when people don't want to talk about MMA on a CMA forum, right?

Ok I’m done - enjoy yourselves.

dspyrido wrote:

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:It's a good thread because I think dealing with the ankle pick is a good place to start addressing some of the reasons we don't see TCMA doing well in high level fights.

This is a glaring gap in they way many people have trained CMA especially if not following a more rigorous training method.

It is the "we don't go to the ground" approach to training. Then for some reason this is interpreted as "no one else must go to the ground". Eventually it must become a "let's not bother with these ground level attacks".

It's a myth. There are CMA styles that go to the ground. There are also methods that were invented to counter these people in the arms race of martial arts.

This occurred to me when wrestling with wrestlers that these methods exist. This got me asking the question & realizing that there are a lot of moves even done in forms that just seem to be practiced mindlessly yet deep down can handle ankle height attacks.

Just look at this fellow as a great example:



Can he handle a wrestlers momentum of a low shoot? If he were to apply a hop back to stuff the attack and then apply some of the moves seen here then I would say yes.

Hmm, I think you might be the one doing the myth making here. I have long loved the Zhao Bao guy, but there are not that many people training like that even in his lineage. I've see other under the table training and even did some myself as it was in my taijiquan lineage. It was never said that this was to counter low attacks. It was for lower basin training.

I'd press you to provide any evidence to support your claims that CMA had the weapons to deal with skilled and committed ankle picks. It seems like you are just reverse engineering what you want to be in the forms. And, no, I don't think developing powerful shin kicks or dog boxing fall into this catergory of being able to properly deal with a wrestler.

You say it's a myth. I say it's an obvious reality. Otherwise, we could see it in action far more often. The fact is that not every art can deal equally well with everything. It's a matter of time and preference.

The Paulson clip was interesting. For me, it illustrated that the single leg or ankle pick were means to an end. In his case, to pass the guard and apply a finish. The interesting part was that he offered his hand as bait. That reminded me of the possible uses of Needle to the Bottom of the Sea movement. However, the goal was to either pull the opponent down forward or, alternatively, pick at the opponent's leg to trip. (Ok, if there are other ideas, cool).

I think that low movements in TCC can be attacks or defenses, but I don't think the intent is to continue on the ground. Why that's true may be a matter of how a culture plays a sport. Almost all cultures have wrestling, but the rules and conventions determine the techniques. That is, until the conventions change because of open or cross competition.

This was how our previous generation countered a single leg. The referee was 王子平 Wang Zi-Ping. Please notice that one hand and one knee touched the ground (any 2 points besides feet), that round was over.

The basic CMA principle, your opponent wants to get low, you help him to get much lower than he can handle.

The basic CMA principle, your opponent wants to get low, you help him

Same for going high or going in any direction.There's actually a taiji phrase stating that concept. Maybe a taiji theory nerd could look it up.
But, of course, it all depends .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9DS1J8VRbU&t=318s

From sumo, skip to 4:40.

johnwang wrote:This was how our previous generation countered a single leg. The referee was 王子平 Wang Zi-Ping. Please notice that one hand and one knee touched the ground (any 2 points besides feet), that round was over.

The basic CMA principle, your opponent wants to get low, you help him to get much lower than he can handle.

I think this is a good principle and should be cultivated. A couple of points.

I don't think we can say for sure whether the picture shows a satisfactory result. Sure, it worked within the rules, but many here are talking about fighting or self defense.

The energy one is needing to deal with from a skillfully executed single leg or ankle pick is not downward, it is forward (backwards for the person defending).

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote: but many here are talking about fighting or self defense.

For fighting or self defense,

- there won't be any mat. Why do you want to use single leg on a ground surface that can hurt your knees?
- you may have to deal with multiple opponent's.
- you may have to deal with weapon.
- you may have to run away from fat cops or flying bullets.
- ...

The moment that you use the wrestling single leg, the moment that you lose your mobility. There are so many other take down skills available (such as foot sweep, front cut, ...). Why do you have to use the wrestling single leg in the first place?

IMO, the wrestling single leg only make sense to be used in sport. It doesn't make sense to be used in fighting or self defense.

In fighting, I'll use much safer take down such as the front cut. Why? My opponent has less chance to punch on my head, and I can still maintain my mobility.

johnwang wrote:

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote: but many here are talking about fighting or self defense.

For fighting or self defense,

- there won't be any mat. Why do you want to use single leg on a ground surface that can hurt your knees?
- you may have to deal with multiple opponent's.
- you may have to deal with weapon.
- you may have to run away from fat cops or flying bullets.
- ...

The moment that you use the wrestling single leg, the moment that you lose your mobility. There are so many other take down skills available (such as foot sweep, ...). Why do you have to use the wrestling single leg in the first place?

IMO, the wrestling single leg only make sense to be used in sport. It doesn't make sense to be used in fighting or self defense.

That's a fine opinion, but people still use double and single legs on the "street" all the time.

Why? Because it is a much higher percentage technique than the others you mention (foot sweep). You lose some mobility, but they will lose more. And, sure, there could be multiple attackers. But, guess what? There could also be a gun.

The reality is that fights can and do end up on the ground. I'm not saying you or anyone else should use single legs on the street, but people should be aware of how they are done in order to defend against them. If you think that you are defending against a downward energy you might be unpleasantly surprised when you have to deal with a skillfully executed single.

jaime_g wrote:Paulson is always a great example for everything

Here is one of his versions of the low single, beautiful as always

https://youtu.be/g9UmFaRXxJE

Beautiful is the correct description of his low single.
Love the clarity & simplicity of his movement & teaching

Thank you for my first introduction to him.


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