Response to a low single leg

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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby johnwang on Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:44 pm

You don't have to get that low for double legs.

Image

Single leg is used a lot in no jacket Chinese wrestling.

Image

Last edited by johnwang on Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby bailewen on Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:09 am

johnwang wrote:Instead of using the SC term "扣(Kou) - Knee seizing", or "撿(Jian) - Foot picking", I use the term "single leg" much loosely. As long as I can pick up my opponent's leading leg into my arm, I'll call that "single leg". I can do that by knee strike, shoulder strike, shin bite, foot scoop, foot sweep, outer hook, inner hook, ...

I do think the SC single leg is safer to use than the wrestling single leg. At least you can use one arm to control your opponent's arm/arms. Your opponent will have less chance to punch on your head (compare to the wrestling single leg that your opponent's both arms are still free).


Well, in general there's nothing wrong with being lazy about the terminology, but since "ankle pick" (thanks Ian, I got brainwashed by all the "legs" on this thread) is such a precise technique in a lot of fighting styles, it's a major impediment to the discussion. I was making all kinds of assumptions about single legs that I would not make about an ankle pick, which is, IMHO, a much safer, sneakier throw.

I'm no expert on them, but in my experience, it ain't for nothing "single leg" is short for "single leg takedown", not "throw". An ankle pick is more of a throw or a sweep to me. A wrestlers single leg requires a level drop and a massive forward charge. Once you got that leg, generally with both arms, you have to keep driving forward and down. With the leg pic or ankle pick, you just scoop up one leg with your hand and push down on the chest with the other.

Also, fwiw, you can do an ankle pick sometimes from the ground on a standing opponent, but then it's just a trip really. Can't work well once in a while.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:35 pm

bailewen wrote: A wrestlers single leg requires a level drop and a massive forward charge.

By using the CMA definition,

- 1 direction force is push.
- 2 opposite directions force is throw.

The wrestling single leg is only push. Since a push can be countered by pull. A 4 oz pull can change the direction of 1000 lb push.

This is why wrestling single leg is more risky. It's very easy to over commit your single leg.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby bailewen on Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:24 pm

Nah. I think it's still a throw as you pull on the bottom part of the leg while you push higher up.

It's just that the push part is really big. You see people driving forward with their shoulder while pulling the other persons foot inwards.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby bailewen on Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:26 pm

p.s.
I do love picking up the Chinese terms too. I think I finally know what "front cut" means. It's the throw that looks like osoto gari?

"Cutting" because you have a sort of scissor action top and bottom?
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby dspyrido on Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:30 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:I'd press you to provide any evidence to support your claims that CMA had the weapons to deal with skilled and committed ankle picks. It seems like you are just reverse engineering what you want to be in the forms. And, no, I don't think developing powerful shin kicks or dog boxing fall into this catergory of being able to properly deal with a wrestler.

You say it's a myth. I say it's an obvious reality. Otherwise, we could see it in action far more often. The fact is that not every art can deal equally well with everything. It's a matter of time and preference.


To be clear - I don't disagree that some arts can handle circumstances better than others. I am also not saying that CMA > wrestling in a wrestling format or dismissing wrestling techniques. I am saying that there are interesting methods that are not usually taught in wrestling to handle an low single that are found in CMA.

As for evidence - let's go one step further. Here is a sequence. Find a wrestler and try it.

The only caveat - just follow the sequence. Not variations and changes because as everyone knows - a variation will require a change to the sequence.

1. both face off in a crouched stance & both have their left leg slightly forward
2. wrestler shoots a low single
3. you hop back about 30cm keeping the left leg forward & hands lower to the opponents head (left) and shoulder (right)
4. then elongate the right leg back into a long stance &
4.i press the left hand on top of the wrestlers head
4.ii press the right hand on top of the wrestlers left shoulder
4.iii lead left leg is deep angled to about 45 degrees vs. 90 degrees (image below is 90 degrees)
These points are to stuff the initial low single.

For illustration:

Image

NOTE: wrestlers head is on the outside of the lead left leg

5. Wrestler's attack is pressed but a decent wrestler will re-attack. In this example they lift their left leg up and press forward pushing their whole body slightly outward onto the lead leg
6. The momentum lifts your left leg slightly back but you also fold into dragon coiling posture
6.i the left hand now presses the wrestlers head from their left temple outward
6.ii the right hand that was on the shoulder scoops from the bottom of the shoulder

Image

7. The wrestlers momentum and the directing of the head plus the shoulder turn results in the wrestler being turned to their right side

Next steps are up to you which can include pancaking the wrestler or twisting/hopping the left foot out but the point is the use of the traditional postures.

NOTE: although this sequence illustrates CMA postures being applied it is more than that. It is a sequence breakdown that occurred in a wrestling session. I won't make any assumptions it will work on a young Matt Hughes or the next Olympian but I am highlighting that this sequence did work in the context of a mat.

As for this....

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:I have long loved the Zhao Bao guy, but there are not that many people training like that even in his lineage. I've see other under the table training and even did some myself as it was in my taijiquan lineage. It was never said that this was to counter low attacks. It was for lower basin training.


You can dismiss the example I provided even though I say it was applied but I would question you - why do so much lower basin training if it does not help handle lower attacks?
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:38 pm

It will work better if his both hands can fingers point to fingers, and both hands face down - both hands on the back of his opponent's neck, look downward instead of look forward.

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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:14 pm

As for evidence - let's go one step further. Here is a sequence. Find a wrestler and try it.

The only caveat - just follow the sequence. Not variations and changes because as everyone knows - a variation will require a change to the sequence.

1. both face off in a crouched stance & both have their left leg slightly forward
2. wrestler shoots a low single
3. you hop back about 30cm keeping the left leg forward & hands lower to the opponents head (left) and shoulder (right)
4. then elongate the right leg back into a long stance &
4.i press the left hand on top of the wrestlers head
4.ii press the right hand on top of the wrestlers left shoulder
4.iii lead left leg is deep angled to about 45 degrees vs. 90 degrees (image below is 90 degrees)
These points are to stuff the initial low single.

For illustration:NOTE: wrestlers head is on the outside of the lead left leg

5. Wrestler's attack is pressed but a decent wrestler will re-attack. In this example they lift their left leg up and press forward pushing their whole body slightly outward onto the lead leg
6. The momentum lifts your left leg slightly back but you also fold into dragon coiling posture
6.i the left hand now presses the wrestlers head from their left temple outward
6.ii the right hand that was on the shoulder scoops from the bottom of the shoulder7. The wrestlers momentum and the directing of the head plus the shoulder turn results in the wrestler being turned to their right side

Next steps are up to you which can include pancaking the wrestler or twisting/hopping the left foot out but the point is the use of the traditional postures.

NOTE: although this sequence illustrates CMA postures being applied it is more than that. It is a sequence breakdown that occurred in a wrestling session. I won't make any assumptions it will work on a young Matt Hughes or the next Olympian but I am highlighting that this sequence did work in the context of a mat.


I have no reason to doubt that this worked for you. But, it doesn't prove that that's how the postures were used (it's not the only way to apply those postures, for one thing). Again, it seems like you could just be reverse engineering--nothing wrong with that. Showing what you are talking about in a live setting would be most convincing.

why do so much lower basin training if it does not help handle lower attacks?


Lower basin training can only be done when one is able to maintain the internal mechanics in the low stances, and gradually goes lower and lower until you can do it under a table. But, it is not a way to perform applied techniques in the taijiquan I am familiar with. It does improve your applications when you do them at whatever height you need, but it's a way to build kung fu, not a way to practice applications.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:27 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:you could just be reverse engineering--

This is an issue for CMA. You try to find a move in a form that can be used for certain application. But if you look at that person's hands position, and his eyes focus point, you can tell that his intention is not in single leg counter.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby dspyrido on Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:26 pm

johnwang wrote:
Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:you could just be reverse engineering--

This is an issue for CMA. You try to find a move in a form that can be used for certain application. But if you look at that person's hands position, and his eyes focus point, you can tell that his intention is not in single leg counter.


I agree there are tweaks and my notes above highlight a few differences to the picture including hand positions and even the bend in the knee.

When you spar you may follow a move as taught but don't you see adaptations to the circumstance?

You could be shown a head lock throw but if you analyze it I'm sure you could think of 100s of tweaks, entries and variations.

In hsing-i there are the 5 elements. Wood is taught with a certain bend, a certain elbow position and a certain height. If the arm is slightly higher is this a different punch? In all of the hsing-i,xy,xylh the philosophy is - be shown a few moves, practice them intensely to get the coordination & power behind them and then you can apply them to in 1000's of ways.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby dspyrido on Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:51 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:I have no reason to doubt that this worked for you. But, it doesn't prove that that's how the postures were used (it's not the only way to apply those postures, for one thing). Again, it seems like you could just be reverse engineering--nothing wrong with that. Showing what you are talking about in a live setting would be most convincing.


But I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I find value in these moves beyond seeing them in a single dimension.

In posting this I am exploring if others have had the same experience in the low single context & can share it.

I am a firm believer that the same movement training can be applied in many ways. It just is down to the creativity of the person.

BTW it get's worse. I was never shown the sequence I outlined in this context. It's just how it came out. But if my departed sifu was there I am sure he would not have cared because he had the philosophy "In a fight - there are no set techniques".

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Lower basin training can only be done when one is able to maintain the internal mechanics in the low stances, and gradually goes lower and lower until you can do it under a table. But, it is not a way to perform applied techniques in the taijiquan I am familiar with. It does improve your applications when you do them at whatever height you need, but it's a way to build kung fu, not a way to practice applications.


I agree it builds the legs, balance etc. I also agree it hardly ever shown as a lower applied moves. But is there more to it?

In some circles - why do push hands at this height when a squat and move is perfectly good enough training? Are there many people attacking with their hands at this height?

Image

I might be reaching for some but just to highlight I was shown a downward palm pat - then I was shown 3 applications of it against kicks. Now I can think of many more. Does that mean I am reaching?
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby zrm on Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:54 pm

Closest response to a low single leg situation that I could find in my library of old Chinese martial art books.

Image
Image
Image

Application could possibly also be combined with.

Image

Catching the rat is pretty goddam painful. Probably not something you want to do during everyday sparring practice unless you want piss a lot of people off.
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby Giles on Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:55 am

Hurrah! A constructive, interesting and civil discussion that's actually about the original posted question/theme. Wonders may occur after all. :)
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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby Tom on Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:04 am

Giles wrote:Hurrah! A constructive, interesting and civil discussion that's actually about the original posted question/theme. Wonders may occur after all. :)


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Re: Response to a low single leg

Postby johnwang on Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:08 pm

dspyrido wrote:In hsing-i there are the 5 elements. Wood is taught with a certain bend, a certain elbow position and a certain height. If the arm is slightly higher is this a different punch? In all of the hsing-i,xy,xylh the philosophy is - be shown a few moves, practice them intensely to get the coordination & power behind them and then you can apply them to in 1000's of ways.

Will you be able to come up

- hook punch,
- downward hook,
- back fist,
- spin back fist,
- hammer fist,
- spiral fist,

from the XY, or XYLH system?

This is the way that I look at MA training.

- I want technique X in my toolbox.
- But it's not in my MA system A.
- Where can I get it?
- I can get it from MA system B.
- I need to cross train MA system B.
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