Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Yeung on Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:01 am

This post is looking for suggestion in doing research in Internal Martial Arts from the perspective of sport science since no result is found in google search for Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts with quotes nor Research Methods in Internal Martial Arts with quotes on 20th November 2020, 16:00 GMT. Maybe this post is breaking new ground in doing research. The definition of Internal Martial Arts forum has the title of Xingyiquan-Beguzhang-Taijiquan [for] discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles. It sounded a bit contradictory but is acceptable by most forum members. Do we have a working definition for Internal Martial Arts?

This is one example of a definition of Chinese Internal Martial Arts:

“The Chinese internal martial arts of Tai Chi Chuan, Hsing Yi Chuan and Pa Kua Chang are sister arts philosophically built upon Taoist foundations. They have been practiced in mainland China for hundreds of years, building a reputation as superb health practices and self-defence methods. Although the physical approaches to self-defence and expression of power differ, all three arts devote a major part of training on solo posture work, both static and dynamic, where different postures are performed in a slow, flowing and meditative manner. “ (Antoine Camilleri, Horizons University, Paris, France, 2018)

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... rtial_Arts

Please comment, as there are many areas of interest just on the definition alone before going on to further discussion on the topic of this post.
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Kelley Graham on Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:16 am

Sounds like there's some overlap with this project. Maybe add keywords to your interests and see what the data shows. https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... &sk=t&sd=a
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Yeung on Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:32 pm

Kelley Graham wrote:Sounds like there's some overlap with this project. Maybe add keywords to your interests and see what the data shows. https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... &sk=t&sd=a

Thanks, have you got a definition of Chinese Internal Martial Arts in your project?
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Kelley Graham on Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:38 pm

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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Strange on Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:03 pm

if basic understanding is not correct
there is no use to think so much
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Yeung on Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:03 am

Kelley Graham wrote:https://ucbprogram.com/content/what-internal-practice


Thanks, but what is you research variable or variables?
Last edited by Yeung on Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Yeung on Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:36 am

Strange wrote:if basic understanding is not correct
there is no use to think so much

"The Falsification Principle, proposed by Karl Popper, is a way of demarcating science from non-science. It suggests that for a theory to be considered scientific it must be able to be tested and proven false. For example, the hypothesis that "all swans are white," can be falsified by observing a black swan."
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Bao on Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:27 am

Yeung wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... rtial_Arts

Please comment, as there are many areas of interest just on the definition alone before going on to further discussion on the topic of this post.



This paper has a lot of flaws. First of all it generalises the internal arts way too much without considering differences in schools, lineages and methods. It also generalises internal practice by mentioning principles from Tai Chi and qigong which are too specific and do not include a wide range of different philosophies and methods that could equally be labelled neighing practice or internal martial arts practice.
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Kelley Graham on Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:51 am

Yeung wrote:
Kelley Graham wrote:Sounds like there's some overlap with this project. Maybe add keywords to your interests and see what the data shows. https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... &sk=t&sd=a

Thanks, have you got a definition of Chinese Internal Martial Arts in your project?

you asked for a definition of internal practice, i provided mine. i'm not really interested in research as subjective experience is so difficult to turn into meaningful data. i'm much more interested in developing training methods and successfully passing on what i know.
Last edited by Kelley Graham on Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby johnwang on Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:21 pm

Kelley Graham wrote: i'm not really interested in research as subjective experience is so difficult to turn into meaningful data. i'm much more interested in developing training methods and successfully passing on what i know.

This is so true. I don't know any CMA research can help one's personal training unless he can develop a training methods from that theory.

For example, I find to coordinate punch with either leading foot landing, or back foot landing is so important. If I walk 3 miles daily (3 x 2,000 = 6,000 steps), I can train 6,000 punches daily (365 x 6,000 = 2,190,000 punch annually). To me, that body experience is much more important than a theory in my head.

To me, the term "internal" can be as simple as "hand and foot coordination".
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby yeniseri on Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:56 pm

Yeung wrote:This post is looking for suggestion in doing research in Internal Martial Arts from the perspective of sport science since no result is found in google search for Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts with quotes nor Research Methods in Internal Martial Arts with quotes on 20th November 2020, 16:00 GMT. Maybe this post is breaking new ground in doing research. The definition of Internal Martial Arts forum has the title of Xingyiquan-Beguzhang-Taijiquan [for] discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles. It sounded a bit contradictory but is acceptable by most forum members. Do we have a working definition for Internal Martial Arts?

This is one example of a definition of Chinese Internal Martial Arts:

“The Chinese internal martial arts of Tai Chi Chuan, Hsing Yi Chuan and Pa Kua Chang are sister arts philosophically built upon Taoist foundations. They have been practiced in mainland China for hundreds of years, building a reputation as superb health practices and self-defence methods. Although the physical approaches to self-defence and expression of power differ, all three arts devote a major part of training on solo posture work, both static and dynamic, where different postures are performed in a slow, flowing and meditative manner. “ (Antoine Camilleri, Horizons University, Paris, France, 2018)

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... rtial_Arts

Please comment, as there are many areas of interest just on the definition alone before going on to further discussion on the topic of this post.


This is excellent and about time that we look beyond the subjective and the myth of what we term Internal MArtial Arts!
In my own personal journey, I used to attempt to inject a reality on some forums but I realized people prefer the myth, the illusion, the deception, etc to push their own delusions upon others. I did not give up but I am less incliuned to do so today so I follow the adage that if you do it, do so in secret and keep it to yourself. Share wth those who share the vison. The negative image of CMA is so because of these myths and delusions that people 'push' on minds that lack a fundamental purposeful leel of trainiong and education so stuff becomes muddled and this is how people like it.

As an example, when I teach taijiquan, I tend to utilize its yangsheng element (as opposed to the martial) whereby I target the jingluo (14 of them) as part and parcel of posture manipulation within health and fitness. Its meaning s that repeated posture practice over time and in conjunction with a specific routine (Yang, Wu (2 of them designated by tone!), Sun, Chan and recently Li pai taijiquan**!) assists the musculoskeletal system through this massage of the jingluo through posture 'configurations/assumption within said form.
According to thsi Japanese acupunctureist there are certain muscles within the body that allows for the 'stretching" "invigoration' etc of the body and when the body has adoped a certain posture, say White Crane Spreads Wings' where lung and Kidney 'stretching' is enhanced and this stimulation allows for the body the adaption to correct 'what is called "imbalances" for that time period. People look at me like I'm crazy! Just saying but I will let the secret out. There is this fellow from Australia (I never met him(Erle) but we talked a few times and he sent me a video. We did not always agree but why should we but his enthisiasm showed me the way). In short, he made a similar pronouncement where the methodology of jngluo, though vague, in TCM circles, are enhanced by modern methods of inquiry and truth.
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby johnwang on Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:12 pm

yeniseri wrote:I used to attempt to inject a reality on some forums but I realized people prefer the myth, the illusion, the deception, etc to push their own delusions upon others. I did not give up but I am less incliuned to do so today so I follow the adage that if you do it, do so in secret and keep it to yourself. Share wth those who share the vison. The negative image of CMA is so because of these myths and delusions that people 'push' on minds that lack a fundamental purposeful leel of trainiong and education so stuff becomes muddled and this is how people like it.

Agree with you 100% on this!

Have you noticed that we no longer hear about Chi master any more? Back in the 80, the Chi masters were all over the place. Suddenly they all disappear from the face of earth. Why?

Last edited by johnwang on Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Yeung on Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:54 am

“Acupuncture therapy has been proved to be effective for diverse diseases, symptoms, and conditions in numerous clinical trials. The growing popularity of acupuncture therapy has triggered the development of modern acupuncture-like stimulation devices (ASDs), which are equivalent or superior to manual acupuncture with respect to safety, decreased risk of infection, and facilitation of clinical trials.” (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5481834/)

But there are no clinical trials on the effects of relevant techniques in martial arts. The latest development is the Mawangdui Daoyin Shu developed from the Mawangdui Sike Painting dated back to Han Dynasty (221 BC - 220 AD). The Xingyi Five Element Fists are related to the six Yin meridians, their stretching and compression techniques can be traced to the relevant meridians and organs which can be experienced by the practitioners subjectively. Capitalized on them there are further developments which can be taught but not proven by clinical trials. I think the research methodology is straightforward in terms of input and outcome as the relevant exercise for a particular meridian can be clearly identified and sufficient reports will support that it works quantitatively. The problem with Taijiquan research is that they did not define clearly their research variables. Therefore, inconsistent input yielded inconsistent output that is all.
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Yeung on Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:42 am

Here is an example from Mawangdui Daoyin Shu No, 6 Yin Fu, which is directed at the small intestine meridian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcsqUhzURbc

The small intestine meridian:

https://theory.yinyanghouse.com/acupunc ... an_graphic

The East Midlands Non-concentric Group have tried but without any sensation until they worked out a static posture from the set that generated some impact on the arms and face alone the meridian paths of the left and right small intestine meridian. So maybe after the lockdown they will recruit beginners to try it and report on it.
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Kelley Graham on Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:00 am

here's the line this research walks. https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... bjectivity
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