Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby LaoDan on Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:52 am

Yeung wrote:This is one example of a definition of Chinese Internal Martial Arts:

“The Chinese internal martial arts of Tai Chi Chuan, Hsing Yi Chuan and Pa Kua Chang are sister arts philosophically built upon Taoist foundations. They have been practiced in mainland China for hundreds of years, building a reputation as superb health practices and self-defence methods. Although the physical approaches to self-defence and expression of power differ, all three arts devote a major part of training on solo posture work, both static and dynamic, where different postures are performed in a slow, flowing and meditative manner. “ (Antoine Camilleri, Horizons University, Paris, France, 2018)

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... rtial_Arts

Please comment, as there are many areas of interest just on the definition alone before going on to further discussion on the topic of this post.


I do not think that one can develop a widely accepted definition for the internal MA since there is far too much variety and too many differences from one school to another. I think that the thesis linked to took a reasonably good approach in trying to find some common characteristics (as he understands them) and focusing on finding research that may be appropriate for those specific characteristics (whether or not that research was specific to studies on the internal martial arts).

Rather than using the brief introductory statement about IMA, I think that one should use the following as “definitions” for this study (studying only certain aspects of the arts):

This thesis seeks to investigate the multidimensional factors involved in the essence and foundation of the three Chinese internal martial arts; the static and dynamic standing posture training.

and
This work seeks to study and dissect the essential components inherent in posture training common to all three main internal arts, and investigate them separately by searching for and studying scientific papers done on each component.


[If the criteria that the author uses do not seem appropriate to your own studies, then the above can be further defined as being from, or perhaps specific to, the Wang Shu Jin transmission through Mario Borg and Manfred Rottmann.]

Most applicable scientific research will not be specifically studying the IMA, and one will need to extrapolate from studies that appear to address various components that your personal practice indicates may be involved in these arts. This is what the writer of the thesis did.
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby yeniseri on Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:59 pm

We have to change the terminology, or at least reference some elements relatinng to the following:
1. Health
2. Wellness
3. Immunity
4. Meditation
5. Fitness

The current designation of Internal Martial Arts will do nothing to engender research of any kind. The health/wellness continuum and similar epitaphs has instead engendered a western paradigm of Meditative Movements of which "Internal Martial Arts" encompasses taijiquan, qigong, yangsheng, daoyin, etc and this is ongoing as I type these words. Check out PubMed and search on Meditative Movement.
A few years ago, there was a study about Falungong (NOTE: stay away from the political crap associated with it!) where it was found that the 'exercise routines' were of sufficeient gong (time, duration, frequency of x weeks) to show a better immunity profile in those who were persistent practitioners. Methodology was documented along with other tools that showed at a cellular level, the effects of Falungong practice ;D !
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby yeniseri on Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:13 am

Yeung wrote:Here is an example from Mawangdui Daoyin Shu No, 6 Yin Fu, which is directed at the small intestine meridian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcsqUhzURbc

The small intestine meridian:

https://theory.yinyanghouse.com/acupunc ... an_graphic

The East Midlands Non-concentric Group have tried but without any sensation until they worked out a static posture from the set that generated some impact on the arms and face alone the meridian paths of the left and right small intestine meridian. So maybe after the lockdown they will recruit beginners to try it and report on it.


I noticed that in Yang style "Crane spreads wings" small intestine is also 'invigorated' by postural positioning meaning that any posture that resembles that will allow for said meridian to be 'exercised' through the flexion, extension, wrist placement within the execution of x postuer performing similar motion/movement, Note that Daoyin Yangshenggong of Prof Zhang Guangde does mention the meridians (jingluo) associated with certain movements. The extent of it is solely on the individual participant and his/her level of fitness and 'exertion index'!
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Strange on Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:16 am

Yeung wrote:"The Falsification Principle, proposed by Karl Popper, is a way of demarcating science from non-science. It suggests that for a theory to be considered scientific it must be able to be tested and proven false. For example, the hypothesis that "all swans are white," can be falsified by observing a black swan."


Yeung, this is just plain idiotic. bombastic theories do not make any kungfu.
let's be honest: you know it's bullshit, right?
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Yeung on Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:26 am

This will not make Kungfu but enable people to differentiate between good Kungfu and bad Kungfu.
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby yeniseri on Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:37 am

Strange wrote:
Yeung wrote:"The Falsification Principle, proposed by Karl Popper, is a way of demarcating science from non-science. It suggests that for a theory to be considered scientific it must be able to be tested and proven false. For example, the hypothesis that "all swans are white," can be falsified by observing a black swan."


Yeung, this is just plain idiotic. bombastic theories do not make any kungfu.
let's be honest: you know it's bullshit, right?


Dude, in a roundabout way, you have stated an alternative hypothesis, which happens to be the norm and a truth, that bombastic theories have solidified what we know today as Internal Martial Arts.

Here are some scenarios:
1. Hypothesis: There is no differene between karate and taijiquan. So why do karatekas always knock out taijiquan people 100% of the time. Do karatekas have better qi? Do they play will dolls (absurdity but wtf). so we downgrade taijiquan to a less lethal category and we see that karatekas have a higher profile on skill as defined by KO, or external measurable criteria. We already see that there is a difference so how do we porceed? There may be an age difference whereby the karatekas were older 40-50 yrs whereas the taijiquan people were younger 30-40yrs old. Again there are many variables we have to go through (e.g. age, weight, gender? yrs of training and compare/quantify for a resoned outcome.
2. Hypothesis let's change taijiquan intervention to BJJ! Why do BJJ practitioners win 90% of the time? What criteria changes and why! How do we quantify an outcome. We know that karetaks do not stand a chance against BJJ based on their loss in the arena (sport) I am looking at MMA PPV but I see the results through Youtube ;D

I amjust glossing over the variable(s) we need to look at and how we attempt to categorize them for analyses.

So we downgrade taijiquan to an exercise/fitness/wellness intervention and use the variables of blood pressure, heart rate, pulse, etc and measure to see the decrease of variables over time and through descriptive statistics we see patterns that tell us using elements of research methodology that can be "machine tested"i.e. external documentation of effect (BP, HR, etc) that something is happenneing and allows us to come to a conclusion.


This study involves brain health implying the use of external instrumentation to see a before and after view of x part of brain. Check out the Methods Section as a point of reference (othere sections are important also. This is the norm when we apply 'research methodology" in assessing things! They are comparing taijiquan and baduanjin to see the change (if any, or developement of some change, as applicable, in x part of the brain through tai chi or baduanjin 'movement'). Just another devel question meaning no mention of jingluo (meridians! ;D ) though! Enjoy!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5659386/
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Strange on Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:33 am

Schools are like assembly lines that produce cars.
If car is not performing, factory is making it wrong.
if students produce graduated are not "performing" to the specified standard
surely something is wrong with the teaching.

factories have quality control also; so should schools
when i said that the teacher should qualify which students can go fight here in this board;
i was essentially laughed off as talking nonsense.

as to your example of taiji, my friend
I am not eve sure the current existing taiji is the same taiji people are practicing..
say in the 1950s or 60s.
So you see nowadays taiji practitioners getting into the ring, go into boxing stance,
and do all sorts of movement other than taiji...
so my question is: Is taiji suppose to be done in the attack mode from the start (like in the ring)
or is the original intention of the art is meant to be activated upon an attack from opponent?

Glove, headgear, ring, bright lights, loud music, guy with mic do strange things....
suddenly years of learning and understanding is all gone in an instant... all become boxer!

and i do not think martial movement "lie" in the logical portion of the brain
so theoretical logicalizing only produce a lot of words that sounds nice, impress some ladies,
and give you a false impression that you can do high level kungfu skills.
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Strange on Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:42 am


oh baby, you know it...
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby suckinlhbf on Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:25 am

I am not eve sure the current existing taiji is the same taiji people are practicing..

My respect to you, brother. you dare say it. But it is so true, not only in Taiji.....LHBF too.
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Tom on Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:37 pm

Strange wrote:[snip]

as to your example of taiji, my friend
I am not eve sure the current existing taiji is the same taiji people are practicing..
say in the 1950s or 60s.
So you see nowadays taiji practitioners getting into the ring, go into boxing stance,
and do all sorts of movement other than taiji...
so my question is: Is taiji suppose to be done in the attack mode from the start (like in the ring)
or is the original intention of the art is meant to be activated upon an attack from opponent?

Glove, headgear, ring, bright lights, loud music, guy with mic do strange things....
[snip]


I think your observation applied even in the 1950s:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FsZyPjsjTA
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby windwalker on Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:01 pm

Tom wrote:
I think your observation applied even in the 1950s:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FsZyPjsjTA


Spoke with Chin, Shifu about this..

He had some interesting things to say that made it a little more clear about
what was going on.

The White Crane teacher Chan Hoc-Fu, was Gorge Longs, teacher
who would later teach white crane in SF.

Chuck Tse, had a gym in HI,
his focus like most proponents of the style was on fighting.


Ng-Siu-Chung taught three prominent students who became key figures in the migration of white crane kung-fu to the U.S.: Cheuk Tiang-Tse, in Hawaii;
Chan-Hoc-Fu, whose student, George Long, was the first person to open his kwoon (Chinese school) to non Orientals in San Francisco; and Lak-Chi-Fu, whose student,

Quentin Fang, is well known in the U.S., and whose son, Lak-Chung- Mau, teaches the art in Canada. Tang-Chak-Ming's students William Siu and Raymond Mar are also well known within the Chinese martial arts.
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby johnwang on Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:14 pm

There are some major principles missing in this clip.

- They don't have guard concept. They need to use either close guard to protect their head, or use long guard to protect their space.
- When they 1st punch created an opening, their 2nd punch should punch through that opening.

The question is, will a Taiji guy be able to master both principles only from the Taiji training?

- What should the Taiji guard look like?
- In Taiji, how to use one punch to set up another punch?

For example, when I throw a right straight punch, if you block

- up, I can use left undercut, or pull you block down and use left over hook.
- to your right, I can change right straight to right hook.
- to your left, I can use left hook.

IMO, this kind of simple 1, 2 combo should exist in all MA training.

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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Bao on Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:56 pm

Oh my... that old Tai chi vs White Crane clip again. This is really not a good example of anything. Western boxing was in back then. They had a boxing setting, a ring, used a boxing similar rule-set. This was what the audience wanted to see. There was also a large crowd who had payed for it, so they “fighters” were told to make the match last. So by the setting and the rules, and to please the audience, they fought in a “western” way instead of using their traditional styles.
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby Strange on Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:48 am

Brother, thank you.
before ppl misunderstand, i am not saying things cannot change
those who know me, know my long and consistent respect for Bruce Lee and Wang XZ.
they change it big time.
What i am saying is that the core must not change.

with regards to Taiji, i specifically read a taiji manual from Fu Zhongwen.
he said that the taiji he learnt had visualization/imagination as a core concept;
but he was not sure he could say the same now.
Of course, i do not practice taiji, but is what Master Fu say true?

Forgive me if i speak plainly, its just that i think we are all too invested
not to speak the truth among ourselves.
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Re: Research Methodology in Internal Martial Arts

Postby suckinlhbf on Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:10 am

not to speak the truth

Beautiful lies go a lot easier, and it may get people to keep on researching and practicing to find out the truth by themselves. Our ancestors have said that there are only a handful few out of millions can get it. Especially nowadays, teachers commercialize their teaching and people learn from videos and books. CMA is a hand talk art.
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