Internal vs. external

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Internal vs. external

Postby origami_itto on Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:46 am

It's true that the less one understands the more words they will use to demonstrate it.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Appledog on Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:53 am

origami_itto wrote:It's true that the less one understands the more words they will use to demonstrate it.


What do you mean? Can you give an example?
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby origami_itto on Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:09 am

Appledog wrote:
origami_itto wrote:It's true that the less one understands the more words they will use to demonstrate it.


What do you mean? Can you give an example?

That word salad dump you just left here.

It's like, when I was 5 somebody told me that sex was when a boy got on top of a girl and I figured that meant he stood on her shoulders.

I don't really know if internal and external are useful distinctions.

And I don't know what is or is not present in other arts, I've only studied Taijiquan at depth.

So maybe this is OTT.

But to put it bluntly.

The jin is stored like drawing a bow, mobilized like pulling silk, and released like firing an arrow.

So what we are dealing with in Yang style Taijiquan, the only art I feel in any way qualified to speak about with any shred of authority, is a method of generating power and movement through the use of elastic force.

What Sifu is describing here is the physical mechanism of this elastic force.

There are tissues other than red muscle that store elastic energy when stretched and compressed. Taijiquan neigong of the sort he describes acts to increase the elasticity of those tissues.

The subjective sensation is of the meat separating from the bone but of course it's really just stretching and strengthening connective tissues.

And again, high tonus and contraction interferes with this because it resists the stretch, it's like dry rotted rubber, no bounce no play.

That, to me, is a useful formula.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby everything on Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:20 am

origami_itto wrote:
Appledog wrote:
origami_itto wrote:It's true that the less one understands the more words they will use to demonstrate it.


What do you mean? Can you give an example?

That word salad dump you just left here.

It's like, when I was 5 somebody told me that sex was when a boy got on top of a girl and I figured that meant he stood on her shoulders.

Is this in top five funniest comments here ever?
Quite possibly.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Appledog on Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:22 am

origami_itto wrote:
Appledog wrote:
origami_itto wrote:It's true that the less one understands the more words they will use to demonstrate it.


What do you mean? Can you give an example?

That word salad dump you just left here.

It's like, when I was 5 somebody told me that sex was when a boy got on top of a girl and I figured that meant he stood on her shoulders.

I don't really know if internal and external are useful distinctions.

And I don't know what is or is not present in other arts, I've only studied Taijiquan at depth.

So maybe this is OTT.

But to put it bluntly.

The jin is stored like drawing a bow, mobilized like pulling silk, and released like firing an arrow.

So what we are dealing with in Yang style Taijiquan, the only art I feel in any way qualified to speak about with any shred of authority, is a method of generating power and movement through the use of elastic force.

What Sifu is describing here is the physical mechanism of this elastic force.

There are tissues other than red muscle that store elastic energy when stretched and compressed. Taijiquan neigong of the sort he describes acts to increase the elasticity of those tissues.

The subjective sensation is of the meat separating from the bone but of course it's really just stretching and strengthening connective tissues.

And again, high tonus and contraction interferes with this because it resists the stretch, it's like dry rotted rubber, no bounce no play.

That, to me, is a useful formula.


I am sorry if I offended you, but what you just said is more than a little mean, and unwarranted specifically since I prefaced everything by explaining that I was talking about development in a different style than your sifu. I only wanted to share my perspective and experience here to try and help some people understand. For me, I equally disagree with most of what is written here, but I try to keep a positive mind and just share the things I have learned over the years. I've learned that even when I disagree with people I often learn a lot. I learned a lot already from some of the posts in this thread, some of which got my brain working enough that I was able to post what I did.

Take what is useful, leave the rest.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Appledog on Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:26 am

everything wrote:Is this in top five funniest comments here ever?
Quite possibly.


Quite painful actually. But I am not here to offend people. We're all here for different reasons. When you encounter someone who is here to offend someone, it's too easy to go off on them but this could hurt their feelings. Frankly if you want to picture me as some kind of lonely clown I think that is a function I will accept for your benefit. But you will excuse me if I decide to stay for a while. There is too much useful information here and sometimes I guess I post solely for my own benefit, to organize my thoughts. If you want to laugh at me then perhaps that is merely added value for others.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby origami_itto on Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:28 am

Appledog wrote:
origami_itto wrote:It's true that the less one understands the more words they will use to demonstrate it.


What do you mean? Can you give an example?


And I'm sorry if I'm coming off rude or dismissive, I probably am. I'm having a rough morning with an autistic kid and a dead car battery and a wife in another state. Wu De can be a struggle.

It's just I see people go off on these journeys and it just reads to me like they're lost in the mystery chasing the confusion instead of trying to blow away the fog and see the landscape they're exploring clearly.

So when reading or talking or thinking about this stuff I have to ask myself "Is this actionable or useful information" and if not, well it might be amusing but I don't want to spend too much time on it.

I don't want to stumble around in the dark and gush over how interesting things feel with my hands. I want to turn on the light and see what I'm working with.

My first student is actually a graduate student in biomedical engineering, I'm mercilessly picking her brain about the finer points of anatomy to help flesh out my theories. It's been fun to blow her mind with the perspective changing ways authentic Taijiquan engages the body.

But back on point, the "internal power" or "jin" or "elastic force" is how you do stuff like this, it doesn't matter how big your biceps are.
Image
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby origami_itto on Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:31 am

Appledog wrote:
origami_itto wrote:I am sorry if I offended you, but what you just said is more than a little mean, and unwarranted specifically since I prefaced everything by explaining that I was talking about development in a different style than your sifu. I only wanted to share my perspective and experience here to try and help some people understand. For me, I equally disagree with most of what is written here, but I try to keep a positive mind and just share the things I have learned over the years. I've learned that even when I disagree with people I often learn a lot. I learned a lot already from some of the posts in this thread, some of which got my brain working enough that I was able to post what I did.

Take what is useful, leave the rest.


Yes, I apologize for my rudeness there. I'll leave it stand though because it IS funny and I don't really believe in trying to hide my mistakes by deleting them. I've actually grown to appreciate your knowledge and contributions here recently, which is probably more about me than it is about you.

Oh and to be clear I just referred to Kelley Graham as Sifu as an honorific in recognition of his knowledge and skill and contribution to the studies. At this time we have no current or past student-teacher relationship, though I am very interested in learning more about his work.
Last edited by origami_itto on Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby everything on Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:32 am

Appledog wrote:
everything wrote:Is this in top five funniest comments here ever?
Quite possibly.


Quite painful actually. But I am not here to offend people. We're all here for different reasons. When you encounter someone who is here to offend someone, it's too easy to go off on them but this could hurt their feelings. Frankly if you want to picture me as some kind of lonely clown I think that is a function I will accept for your benefit. But you will excuse me if I decide to stay for a while. There is too much useful information here and sometimes I guess I post solely for my own benefit, to organize my thoughts. If you want to laugh at me then perhaps that is merely added value for others.


Sorry, out of context. I don’t mean it’s funny as an insult.
Just the analogy out of context is funny.

I haven’t really read the long discussion you guys were having.

Agree posting can be largely for one’s own benefit. Writing helps with thinking.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Bhassler on Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:13 am

Kelley Graham wrote:[Edited quote. thx] Hmmm, I don't believe I said anything was wrong, just that I prefer clarity over fuzziness. Not sure that I asserted anything universal about slack either. somatic education systems are a different type of systems modeling and don't really apply to the structural slack of the skeleton. nothing weird about providing context for a novel use of language. biological systems like the body are designated open or closed depending on the scope and context of the viewer. cells are open systems, without cell wall permeability, cells die. slack and the stabilizers is a closed system.


All martial arts are somatic education systems, and I don't see how you can say that the methods I'm referring to are or are not a different type of systems modeling, since I haven't actually specified what they are. I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of argument-- there are a lot of assumptions in how you're using language that do not necessarily translate when people from different backgrounds read what you're writing. That makes it so what seems very clear to you may not be clear at all to your readers.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:58 am

You do realise the guy in white in the above clip is pushing himself away don’t you
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby origami_itto on Mon Apr 11, 2022 12:13 pm

wayne hansen wrote:You do realise the guy in white in the above clip is pushing himself away don’t you

Well I mean, yeah. That's part of the deal. His push into the other person is routed back into his own structure. I've done it with people that outweighed me trying to push me out of the way and we trained it by putting each other in a neutral stance with arms crossed across the chest. In either case, his intention is to push forward through.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:13 pm

No he is not pushing into the guy then getting repelled
He is pushing waiting for the return push then springing off his arms
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Kelley Graham on Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:16 pm

Bhassler wrote:
Kelley Graham wrote:[Edited quote. thx] Hmmm, I don't believe I said anything was wrong, just that I prefer clarity over fuzziness. Not sure that I asserted anything universal about slack either. somatic education systems are a different type of systems modeling and don't really apply to the structural slack of the skeleton. nothing weird about providing context for a novel use of language. biological systems like the body are designated open or closed depending on the scope and context of the viewer. cells are open systems, without cell wall permeability, cells die. slack and the stabilizers is a closed system.


All martial arts are somatic education systems, and I don't see how you can say that the methods I'm referring to are or are not a different type of systems modeling, since I haven't actually specified what they are. I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of argument-- there are a lot of assumptions in how you're using language that do not necessarily translate when people from different backgrounds read what you're writing. That makes it so what seems very clear to you may not be clear at all to your readers.


Yes, I like to share works in progress here 'cause there's immediate feedback. Context is very important in this kind of work. First, it seems stupidly obvious that methods are not concepts. It is very difficult to get an understanding of a concept from examples of its application, however, in somatic practice, movement based learning, CIMA or any movement based art, it is done all the time. This is one of the issues in teaching that I am trying to address.

To clarify - The difficulty here I think is that 'All martial arts are somatic education systems' is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a structural system within the body that fits into a different framework of analysis. Apples and oranges. The concept of 'slack' is a very specific thing that is only useful when taken in context of a closed system. Taken out of context, it doesn't mean anything at all. The relationships between parts that are clarified in this very specific, limited context can then be applied to something wildly dissimilar like 'CIMA' or 'FaJin', but only if the limited scope is preserved in the new context. These kinds of word-constructs act as linguistic bridges between old meanings and new. The goal is that with context and training, people of any background will see the same useful information and can apply the new understanding to their respective methods.

This is all predicated that students find the new meanings an improvement over the old. Many are satisfied with the old meanings, that's great, but not for me. As a student of History, I know that those practices that don't evolve as new knowledge is discovered are lost. For me CIMA is a living art, growing and responding to current conditions. I am in the minority. :)
Last edited by Kelley Graham on Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Kelley Graham on Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:33 pm

origami_itto wrote:
Appledog wrote:
origami_itto wrote:It's true that the less one understands the more words they will use to demonstrate it.


What do you mean? Can you give an example?


And I'm sorry if I'm coming off rude or dismissive, I probably am. I'm having a rough morning with an autistic kid and a dead car battery and a wife in another state. Wu De can be a struggle.

It's just I see people go off on these journeys and it just reads to me like they're lost in the mystery chasing the confusion instead of trying to blow away the fog and see the landscape they're exploring clearly.

So when reading or talking or thinking about this stuff I have to ask myself "Is this actionable or useful information" and if not, well it might be amusing but I don't want to spend too much time on it.

I don't want to stumble around in the dark and gush over how interesting things feel with my hands. I want to turn on the light and see what I'm working with.

My first student is actually a graduate student in biomedical engineering, I'm mercilessly picking her brain about the finer points of anatomy to help flesh out my theories. It's been fun to blow her mind with the perspective changing ways authentic Taijiquan engages the body.

But back on point, the "internal power" or "jin" or "elastic force" is how you do stuff like this, it doesn't matter how big your biceps are.
Image

I don't like to comment on movement unless asked by the performer, but please don't do this. you will give yourself brain damage.
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