Internal vs. external

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Internal vs. external

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:21 pm

When people ask me the difference between internal and external, I will say 1 is internal and 2 is external.

Do you agree?

1. Punch with moving the body.

Image

2. Punch without moving the body.

Image
I'm still allergic to "push".
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby suckinlhbf on Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:08 pm



Internal or External? If one can punch stronger with moving the body, why don't. Why internal and external?
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Bao on Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:18 pm

I will say 1 is internal and 2 is external.

Do you agree?


No
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby rojcewiczj on Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:13 pm

I say it's closer to the opposite. If you punch a target without moving your body, you get feedback as to how well the force flows through your structure and then you can correct your structure for better energy flow, I would call this more internal. If you always move your body when you strike, then you can see what you get, the force generation is externally visible: more movement, more momentum, more force. Not moving your body with your strikes is the harder way, in that you have to progress your understanding of posture and position to make it work, always keeping posture and striking separate from each other and then harmonizing.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby GrahamB on Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:36 am

I'd say he moved his body in both.
I could be wrong.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby marvin8 on Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:45 am

johnwang wrote:When people ask me the difference between internal and external, I will say 1 is internal and 2 is external.

Do you agree?

1. Punch with moving the body.

Image

Why do you say "1 is internal?"

In 1., he is transferring most of his body weight into the opponent by shifting weight from the back foot to the front foot as evidenced by his head changing positions. Note that he does not coordinate hand with foot nor stomp his foot. He is moving his body like the external boxing punch (with apparently more wind up/telegraphing) as I described in comparing Chen Xiaowang's internal punch:

marvin8 wrote:Yes, Chen's fajin is "sacrificing power by not committing as much kinetic chain motion as" a javelin thrower, baseball pitcher or boxer/MMA. However, the most power may not be Chen's goal. The wider the kinetic chain movement, the more force may be generated. There is a spectrum of kinetic chain movement and power: javelin thrower > boxer > Chen's fajin.

Boxing's straight punch > Chen's reverse/hidden fajin punch ("other than the vague 'qi' explanation"):
In the boxing clips below, Tyson and Hearns both throw jabs that bring their weight to the back foot carrying their head to the left of their opponent. Then, they push off the back foot (lifting heel up), rotate their waist and shoulders first, transfer their weight to the front foot where their head is to the right of their opponent, then finally issue/punch.

There are 3 weight distribution positions: 1) off the line with weight on the back foot, 2) centerline, 3) off the line with weight on the front foot. In the clips below, both Tyson and Hearns make greater use of their lines (e.g., greater weight shifts, rotation and off the line/position for defense) than Chen—generating more power while keeping their central equilibrium.

Image

Image
Image
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby yeniseri on Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:57 pm

1. There has to be some type and level of forward momentum of the body.
2. The feet have to be 'spmewhat planted "! rooted at the same time.

The 1st giff is what most boxers use to down their opponents!
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby .Q. on Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:39 pm

johnwang wrote:When people ask me the difference between internal and external, I will say 1 is internal and 2 is external.

Do you agree?

1. Punch with moving the body.

Image

2. Punch without moving the body.

Image

I agree in an overall sense. It's not that external doesn't move the body, but it tends to just use the trunk as a log rather than having more internal movements. However, the guy most likely still used some internal mechanics even in the 2nd one, just not as externally visible, since once you've developed internal habits you'd have to force yourself mindfully to turn them off.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Bao on Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:52 am

1. Punch with moving the body.
2. 1. Punch without moving the body.


So a shoulder stroke is always internal? :-\

IMHO, you can punch moving the whole body together or you can punch and keep the body still. It doesn’t matter. How your body is aligned from foot to the fist when the fist lands is important though, and something you need to learn how to “feel” if you want to use internal jin. Also, if you need to tense up your body when the fist meet the body, your internal practice lack. If you can strike hard without tensing up neither body, fist or breath, then you have done your internal practice well. What is internal or not can not be seen from the outside. What is internal stays on the inside. However, there should still be obvious signs if someone has done internal practice for a long time.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby cloudz on Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:56 am

meh, this again.... every time i pop in i see some thread by john going over some internal external example or distinction. groundhog day has nothing on rsf!

taking 'moves' and trying to classify them in this way is just a no.
no.no.no

'internal', in my opinion is (at its core) a training modality - as it relates to martial arts.
admittedly that's quite a broad way to define the term.

people can bang on about specific physical aspects of the training. however i believe to stay true to the spirit and history of the term you have to base it on what is essentially 'mindful' or the non-physical aspects. to allow, the use of the mind and spirit to lead the body (training).

this is not to say that the overtly physical (faster/ stronger) kinds of body training are disregarded or ignored. but it's fair to say, that they would be seen as not the focal point.

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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby dspyrido on Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:19 pm

External to Internal - two ends of the same spectrum.

3 concepts. Every punch contains all 3 concepts but varies based on where (how much) they sit in the spectrum.

1. Momentum (external) - pushing punches - the more muscles being engaged on impact to push through the better
2. Kinetic energy based (internal/external) - whipping punches - the faster the launching of the body to get maximum acceleration the better
3. Longitudinal/compression wave (internal) - short expansion/contraction strikes - the less movement and shortening of the pulse while maintaining power the better

There's also linear & circular force but the concepts above still relate.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby everything on Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:06 pm

spectrum yes. everything is external. spiral this or that can be more refined, but that is external kinetics/mechanics that may be harder to see. "not visible" would be a good term. some people seem to say that's "internal". I already dropped some Sun quotes 100x where he talks about "internal". since he supposed coined "neijia", it seems easiest to stick to what he said. but for whatever reason, people don't get it, or think they know better, or find it boring, or whatever it is.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Walk the Torque on Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:23 pm

Move inside or outside?
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby marvin8 on Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:47 am

Walk the Torque wrote:Move inside or outside?

Not sure if this answers the question. However, here is an article that describes the internal movement of an external javelin throw, which applies to internal movement in throwing a baseball, punch, etc.

marvin8 wrote:Excerpt from "A New Paradigm in Biomechanics: Fascia, Rotation, and Waves," https://www.just-fly-sports.com/biomech ... ion-waves/:
Kevin Foster on July 16, 2018 wrote:Neuro-fascial System

The role of fascia in movement has always been a highly debated and somewhat mysterious topic. Highly elastic in nature, and heavily integrated into the neural network of movement, the neuro-fascial system helps explain the importance of a proximal to distal activation sequence.

As our connecting piece of anatomy to the ground, our feet play a massive role in the facilitation of tension through the neuro-fascial system. Our feet have an astonishing number of afferent neural connections that reflexively communicate tension up these neuro-fascial pathways. How our foot strikes the ground therefore plays an important role in where the tension goes.

Rotational Dynamics in Arthro- and Osteo-kinematics

At the level of the joint there is no such thing as linear movement. There are muscles that pull on tendons that pull bones in arcs and circles. By understanding this, we can see linear motion as a finely choreographed sequence of arcs and rotation, that when pieced together create a straight line.

When looking at movements pieced together in this way, we can see the importance of rotation in the creation and transfer of energy in movement. An important concept from Adarian Barr’s work is the role of end range of rotational motion in timing and energy transfer.

As an example of this concept, look at how energy gets transferred through the kinetic chain in a baseball or javelin throw: Energy of internal rotation of the right side of the pelvis gets stopped and absorbed by the stiffness of the left hip (think about a bicyclist crashing into a curb and flying over the handle bars to help visualize this example). The linear and angular momentum of the body causes this energy to get transferred up the spine, where end range of thoracic extension and rotation acts as another “curb” that transfers energy to the scapula.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEFfsg8MYbY
Jan Zelezny is the epitome of these motions in action

The end range of scapular retraction and posterior tilt acts as another “curb” that forces gleno-humeral external rotation. When the shoulder hits its end range of external rotation, it acts as a “curb” for the transfer of energy into elbow extension, whose end range acts as a “curb” for gleno-humeral internal rotation and forearm pronation.

There are three key takeaways from this example.

First, as noted above, is that individually these motions all occur in arcs and rotations, but synergistically pull the baseball or javelin in a perfectly straight line.

Second, is that at these “curbs,” the mass of each lever gets progressively smaller, so the conservation of angular momentum plays a massive role in accelerating limbs to high speeds.

The third is that the end ranges of these joints act as a built in “timer” for movement. If you have adequate mobility, and the ability to stay relaxed, each joint will perform its actions when the force gets there.

Timing, Waves, and Elastic Energy

Muscles, tendons, and fascia are all intrinsically elastic. The stretching and contracting of these elastic tissues can be looked at as waves of tension. Remember back in physics class, how all waves followed a sine function when analyzed on a graph? The same concept can apply to stretching and contracting muscles/tendons/fascia.

Building on this concept, when two waves “collide” they can either be constructive or destructive. That is, they can either add together, or cancel each other out.

Whether they add together or cancel out is a function of timing.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BcPdMwHjGxJ/?utm_source=ig_embed
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby everything on Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:59 am

Pavel in Naked Warrior or Power to the People or one of his other older books said something like (borrowing from MA or IMA):

- do some push ups
- now add a "pulling down" sensation (imagine it)
- now add a spiraling/coiling sensation (imagine it, no visible outward movement)
- you will almost instantly feel like the linear push is easier due to this.

some people would call this "internal" and the internal spiraling. it's not really visible, so it's "internal". you could call it "internal mechanics". When you read what the guy who coined "neijia"' says, he talks about the energy aspects and says he is trying to make that super, super clear (paraphrasing), so I would just call this something like "not visible kinetic/mechanical energy/movement" and call the "internal" stuff the "internal energy" stuff (as in neigong). This way it's easier to know what the hell people want to talk about. And why would we think we know more than Sun did? This would be somewhat like me (an average player) saying I know more about football than Pele or Maradona or Cruyff. Why would I think that? Why would anyone? Doesn't make any sense. I get why we'd say what Pavel describes is "power" (since you feel you have more power, nearly instantly).
Last edited by everything on Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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