Internal vs. external

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Walk the Torque on Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:49 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Walk the Torque wrote:Move inside or outside?

Not sure if this answers the question. However, here is an article that describes the internal movement of an external javelin throw, which applies to internal movement in throwing a baseball, punch, etc.

marvin8 wrote:Excerpt from "A New Paradigm in Biomechanics: Fascia, Rotation, and Waves," https://www.just-fly-sports.com/biomech ... ion-waves/:
Kevin Foster on July 16, 2018 wrote:Neuro-fascial System

The role of fascia in movement has always been a highly debated and somewhat mysterious topic. Highly elastic in nature, and heavily integrated into the neural network of movement, the neuro-fascial system helps explain the importance of a proximal to distal activation sequence.

As our connecting piece of anatomy to the ground, our feet play a massive role in the facilitation of tension through the neuro-fascial system. Our feet have an astonishing number of afferent neural connections that reflexively communicate tension up these neuro-fascial pathways. How our foot strikes the ground therefore plays an important role in where the tension goes.

Rotational Dynamics in Arthro- and Osteo-kinematics

At the level of the joint there is no such thing as linear movement. There are muscles that pull on tendons that pull bones in arcs and circles. By understanding this, we can see linear motion as a finely choreographed sequence of arcs and rotation, that when pieced together create a straight line.

When looking at movements pieced together in this way, we can see the importance of rotation in the creation and transfer of energy in movement. An important concept from Adarian Barr’s work is the role of end range of rotational motion in timing and energy transfer.

As an example of this concept, look at how energy gets transferred through the kinetic chain in a baseball or javelin throw: Energy of internal rotation of the right side of the pelvis gets stopped and absorbed by the stiffness of the left hip (think about a bicyclist crashing into a curb and flying over the handle bars to help visualize this example). The linear and angular momentum of the body causes this energy to get transferred up the spine, where end range of thoracic extension and rotation acts as another “curb” that transfers energy to the scapula.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEFfsg8MYbY
Jan Zelezny is the epitome of these motions in action

The end range of scapular retraction and posterior tilt acts as another “curb” that forces gleno-humeral external rotation. When the shoulder hits its end range of external rotation, it acts as a “curb” for the transfer of energy into elbow extension, whose end range acts as a “curb” for gleno-humeral internal rotation and forearm pronation.

There are three key takeaways from this example.

First, as noted above, is that individually these motions all occur in arcs and rotations, but synergistically pull the baseball or javelin in a perfectly straight line.

Second, is that at these “curbs,” the mass of each lever gets progressively smaller, so the conservation of angular momentum plays a massive role in accelerating limbs to high speeds.

The third is that the end ranges of these joints act as a built in “timer” for movement. If you have adequate mobility, and the ability to stay relaxed, each joint will perform its actions when the force gets there.

Timing, Waves, and Elastic Energy

Muscles, tendons, and fascia are all intrinsically elastic. The stretching and contracting of these elastic tissues can be looked at as waves of tension. Remember back in physics class, how all waves followed a sine function when analyzed on a graph? The same concept can apply to stretching and contracting muscles/tendons/fascia.

Building on this concept, when two waves “collide” they can either be constructive or destructive. That is, they can either add together, or cancel each other out.

Whether they add together or cancel out is a function of timing.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BcPdMwHjGxJ/?utm_source=ig_embed


Thanks for that.

I guess you can say that, Bar the intention side of the equation, that the article addresses most things involved in expressing force. However, the way I look at it, its the refinement of these principles that develops the concept of "internal" because the amount of external movement is traded in for the more efficient use of these principles resulting in less visible movement.

The coalescence of:

1) More efficient alignments
2) Various sequencing of force generation i.e. where the power originates, travels through and finally is transferred to the target.
3) The layering of power generation methods. i.e. compression/release, waves, spirals, momentum
4) Management of momentum i.e. the subtle art of movement that does not block or waist the generated force but allows it to move more freely or to guide it/squeeze it to its intended target. I consider this different from static alignment as it uses structure in a more dynamic way.
5) Timing both internally and in relation to the target.
6) and of course intent.

brought together; negates the requirement for (even though external movement can be used in in conjunction with the above principles) external movement.

This is why I draw a distinction between movement inside and outside, because generally as the classics tell us the more going on out side the less inside.

anyway after that egg sucking advice ::), I think I've made my self more clear. Thank you for your time. ;D

Konn
Last edited by Walk the Torque on Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby marvin8 on Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:12 am

Walk the Torque wrote:Thanks for that.

I guess you can say that, Bar the intention side of the equation, that the article addresses most things involved in expressing force. However, the way I look at it, its the refinement of these principles that develops the concept of "internal" because the amount of external movement is traded in for the more efficient use of these principles resulting in less visible movement.

The coalescence of:

1) More efficient alignments
2) Various sequencing of force generation i.e. where the power originates, travels through and finally is transferred to the target.
3) The layering of power generation methods. i.e. compression/release, waves, spirals, momentum
4) Management of momentum i.e. the subtle art of movement that does not block or waist the generated force but allows it to move more freely or to guide it/squeeze it to its intended target. I consider this different from static alignment as it uses structure in a more dynamic way.
5) Timing both internally and in relation to the target.
6) and of course intent.

brought together; negates the requirement for (even though external movement can be used in in conjunction with the above principles) external movement.

This is why I draw a distinction between movement inside and outside, because generally as the classics tell us the more going on out side the less inside.

As you say (?), most of your listed principles are found in the javelin article, external martial arts, sports, etc. A couple more videos illustrating this:

marvin8 wrote:EOEAmerica
May 16, 2020

First in a series of videos outlining Essence of Evolution Theory & Principle.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C5dy2hZJkA

marvin8 wrote:expertboxing
Jan 25, 2014

Learn how to add circular energy to all your boxing and fighting movements to improve your fighting speed, flow, rhythm, and endurance.

Circular energy technique allow your movements to be faster and easier because you are using the same energy to cycle into other moves (allowing you to flow smooth from one move to another, whether it's an offensive fighting move or a defensive fighting move). Circular energy allows you to throw combination punches (faster, more flow, less effort) and make defensive maneuvers more slick, and also to transition between the two seamlessly (with no interruptions in your flow or rhythm).

Without circular energy technique, you would have to keep regenerating new energy with every new movement.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFwizLhA2P4


You say "internal is more refined" and makes "more efficient use of these principles resulting in less visible movement." Great, in reply to other posts, I tried to add to the understanding of external principles for better comparisons (internal/external). Can you give internal comparison examples that may include:

1) punch force at impact
2) effects on an opponent in a fight (e.g., KO, hurt, etc.)
3) etc.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby rojcewiczj on Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:36 pm

Personally I don't think that analyzing movements is the correct approach to distinguishing internal from external. In so far that there is a visible movement, or a movement that can be abstracted from the action (throwing a javelin) and then practiced in isolation, you are dealing with the external aspect of technique: the aspect that can be practiced by going through the motions. The internal aspect to me, is the relational aspect; meaning, the way that you relate to the opponent during action. This involves the intent. Instead of being able to just do the movement like so, you have to have the correct intention as to the relationship you are trying to achieve with opponent/partner.

I think a good intent to practice with, in order to develop a fundamentally different way of relating with the opponent, is the intent of pouncing on your opponent/partner. Instead of thinking you are going to try to hit your opponent with your fist or grab them etc., you set your primary intent to pouncing on the opponent, all other actions become secondary. What this creates is a entire reorganization of your movement and way of relating with your opponent/partner, all of which is happening "internally" due to your mind set (intent).
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby everything on Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:30 am

I think this is what we mean by yi. Yi leads qi (mostly we don't talk about "energy" but that is the "internal" basis Sun wrote about). Align that with all of your techniques and movements.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Royal Dragon on Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:06 am

Internal power is when you generate added power through the expansion/contraction of the dantien, or the compression/release of compression, of the dantien.

EVERYTHING ELSE that everyone always talks about is present in both internal and external arts.

Only the use of the dantien to generate power differs.

So if you are generating power with your dantien, and adding that to the external power you are also generating, then you are doing internal Kung Fu.

If you are not actively generating power with the Dantien, and your core only serves to transfer power from your legs through the core to your upper limbs, then you are moving only externally.

Its really simple.

I have been explaining this here and elsewhere for 20+ years now...still people debate and no one gets it.I think this is too simple to comprehend.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby yeniseri on Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:22 am

"Internal" and "external" aer 2 sides of the same coin!
When you do 100 repetitions of x, you develop neurological and somatosensory "skills' i.e. all that is involved with physical conditioning) and its respective "brain synaptic" pathwatys involved in the levl and type of "jibengong".
I use the " " because there is alot of other stuff happenning that allows for the continued musculoskeletal coordination per our social and intellectual capacity as individuals.

I look back at CMA practitioners of yesteryear and most were 'regular' people involved in everyday work e.g. carpenters, bakers, agricultural work, etc so by their physical conditioning per occupation, they did not need the tools of the gym today because their work provided the physical strength capacity.

If anyone is interested, check out "sensory motor amnesia" (SMA) concept, coined by Thomas Hanna, the founder of Somatics.
I came across the term through Livia Kohn, German Daoist scholar (now in USA) who mentions Hanna in one of her seminal works!
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:45 am

I don't really find the discussion or distinction to be helpful.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:09 pm

Internal v external is not about where you end up but where you start
The only problem is those that don’t complete the journey
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:10 pm

Where is the completion? Yang Lu Chan said there were higher levels than what he was able to attain. Interestingly enough, he also started in what would in modern times be considered an external style, before learning Chen family boxing, and only then creating yang taijiquan.
That would suggest that it's not impossible to correct a "bad start" in some other art or under some other teacher. You don't just have to be supernaturally lucky to first encounter someone with the genuine skill and then learn from them until they die.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:00 pm

The completion is basic understanding of the art
What was your face before u were born
Of course there are higher levels
Who teaches you those levels
The training does
Yes bad training at the start is hard to correct
Most of that is due to lack of will or too full a cup
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Taste of Death on Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:05 pm

Royal Dragon wrote:Internal power is when you generate added power through the expansion/contraction of the dantien, or the compression/release of compression, of the dantien.

EVERYTHING ELSE that everyone always talks about is present in both internal and external arts.

Only the use of the dantien to generate power differs.

So if you are generating power with your dantien, and adding that to the external power you are also generating, then you are doing internal Kung Fu.

If you are not actively generating power with the Dantien, and your core only serves to transfer power from your legs through the core to your upper limbs, then you are moving only externally.

Its really simple.

I have been explaining this here and elsewhere for 20+ years now...still people debate and no one gets it.I think this is too simple to comprehend.


What you are describing is one form of internal training. There are many. In Han Shi Yi Quan we never mention the dantien or qi but work with intention. Internal power begins in the mind and then is transferred to the body and released through the fingertips, whether one trains the dantien or not.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:19 pm

wayne hansen wrote:The completion is basic understanding of the art
What was your face before u were born
Of course there are higher levels
Who teaches you those levels
The training does
Yes bad training at the start is hard to correct
Most of that is due to lack of will or too full a cup

Thank you
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Royal Dragon on Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:49 pm

What you are describing is also abundant in external arts as well. So you cant really count it as being anything uniquely "Internal"

The only thing uniquely different about internal arts, compared to the external ones, is the use of the dantien to generate power. Its an additional method added to the already existing external power chain. If it has it, its internal. If it doesnt, its external only.



Taste of Death wrote:
Royal Dragon wrote:Internal power is when you generate added power through the expansion/contraction of the dantien, or the compression/release of compression, of the dantien.

EVERYTHING ELSE that everyone always talks about is present in both internal and external arts.

Only the use of the dantien to generate power differs.

So if you are generating power with your dantien, and adding that to the external power you are also generating, then you are doing internal Kung Fu.

If you are not actively generating power with the Dantien, and your core only serves to transfer power from your legs through the core to your upper limbs, then you are moving only externally.

Its really simple.

I have been explaining this here and elsewhere for 20+ years now...still people debate and no one gets it.I think this is too simple to comprehend.


What you are describing is one form of internal training. There are many. In Han Shi Yi Quan we never mention the dantien or qi but work with intention. Internal power begins in the mind and then is transferred to the body and released through the fingertips, whether one trains the dantien or not.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:18 pm

The Dan Tien power is a recent Chen thing
I trained Han Shi under another name(Zhong He Ba Shou Guan)
It was one of the fastest ways I have found to develop internal power
Any authentic Chinese style In or Ex has internal training
The difference I see between the two is the Shen Fa and tactics of yielding and folding without giving up territory
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Kelley Graham on Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:41 pm

This question comes up ‘cause there’s value in discussing. If you move on the outside, you won’t move on the inside. Question is, what is the inside movement before the outside movement? The bones have to change to enable the meat to move the bones. The inside change has endless depth and possibility. Since the last time this topic came up, I’ve added a bit to my Definition of Internal Practice. https://sifuondemand.com/what-internal
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