Internal vs. external

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Quigga on Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:11 am

You may call this a philosophical construct:

Yang Shen Fa = Positive-Light Spirit Nurturing

Or strengthening life itself, the creative force in the universe, supporting evolution... From Grey (yin yang mix) to white (pure yang), eh ;)
Basically warrior-saints, warrior-priest-medics...

Learning what is yin in your body and letting go of it, thus ascending higher and higher. Oh well :P
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby wiesiek on Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:33 pm

@Bhassler
" You develop what you practice...."
While this is mor or less truth (I can think with quite large group of exercises not directly connected with let`s say punching, yet practicing it will improve power and speed),
I do not agree completely with the rest.
When you`re young and starting, main aim is body development. It is relatively easy, let`s say 7- 10 years. Internal training needs more time.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:39 pm

Quigga wrote:You may call this a philosophical construct:

Yang Shen Fa = Positive-Light Spirit Nurturing

Or strengthening life itself, the creative force in the universe, supporting evolution... From Grey (yin yang mix) to white (pure yang), eh ;)
Basically warrior-saints, warrior-priest-medics...

Learning what is yin in your body and letting go of it, thus ascending higher and higher. Oh well :P

Definitely a philosophical construct. :P
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Kelley Graham on Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:14 pm

Yeah, I'm resurrecting a dead thread. Is the notion of 'slack' that arises from interoceptive inquiry ( Internal Practice ) unique to Neijia? Slack in this context is the result of good structure, not a negative absence of structure.

Image

Relevant excerpt:

The slack of which I speak can only be felt after cultivating coupled power and experiencing a bit of 'noninterference' in meditation. Conceptually, this definition is analogous to the slack of a geartrain. Slack for our purposes is defined as the range between 'softness-weakness' and 'strength-vigor'. This experiential range is subjective and exclusively from interoceptive signals received from the deep core stabilizers. A CIMA term for this overall practice is known as 'Jibengong' or torso methods.


Entire post at https://sifuondemand.com/slack
Background post on Interoception and an 'Internal Definition' https://sifuondemand.com/what-internal
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Bhassler on Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:19 pm

The concept is not unique to neijia, or even to martial arts. I've heard it referred to as "neutral"-- where a joint (or person) can move in any direction without resistance or preparation. Relative to joints, it's usually a range where the joint can be moved without resistance, and when a change is perceived, that's defined as the edge of neutral. It's is particular to a given joint/individual/position/orientation, so one person's neutral may vary from another's. It's easier felt than described.

I would think that the term "slack" could carry connotations from other domains (like engineering, in the image you posted) that might cause confusion, but as long as it works for you...
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:47 pm

Kelley Graham wrote:Yeah, I'm resurrecting a dead thread. Is the notion of 'slack' that arises from interoceptive inquiry ( Internal Practice ) unique to Neijia? Slack in this context is the result of good structure, not a negative absence of structure.

Image

Relevant excerpt:

The slack of which I speak can only be felt after cultivating coupled power and experiencing a bit of 'noninterference' in meditation. Conceptually, this definition is analogous to the slack of a geartrain. Slack for our purposes is defined as the range between 'softness-weakness' and 'strength-vigor'. This experiential range is subjective and exclusively from interoceptive signals received from the deep core stabilizers. A CIMA term for this overall practice is known as 'Jibengong' or torso methods.


Entire post at https://sifuondemand.com/slack
Background post on Interoception and an 'Internal Definition' https://sifuondemand.com/what-internal



One can "write" about anything :P ...

Wouldn't it be better to "show" what is done that make it notably different
from any other method used to do the same thing.. :-\

From the posted link

The question remains, "Where can we find common language?


There is a Common Language, common to the culture from which the concept originated from.
Why would one from another culture attempt to redefine it, and still assume that the redefined definition has anything to do with the original meaning coming from the original culture.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Kelley Graham on Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:14 pm

Original Mandarin culture no longer exists. Besides, new understanding is discovered and old ideas must be reexamined. Each generation contributes. I am not sentimental when it comes to History. Hard to do anything new, when using the old. New ideas generate new approaches to training. Yada yada. I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree over this.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Kelley Graham on Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:21 pm

Bhassler wrote:The concept is not unique to neijia, or even to martial arts. I've heard it referred to as "neutral"-- where a joint (or person) can move in any direction without resistance or preparation. Relative to joints, it's usually a range where the joint can be moved without resistance, and when a change is perceived, that's defined as the edge of neutral. It's is particular to a given joint/individual/position/orientation, so one person's neutral may vary from another's. It's easier felt than described.

I would think that the term "slack" could carry connotations from other domains (like engineering, in the image you posted) that might cause confusion, but as long as it works for you...


The term neutral has to to with outside forces in open systems. Neutral doesn't really apply to closed systems. My use of slack is very specific to the skeleton and the closed system that is our body. I like this term in this context because it is so specific. Without slack there is no engagement, too little slack and the system jams and fails. When it comes to Fajin, slack is the medium of transference. It is an apt metaphor and doesn't really apply to open systems to which your refer above. Thanks for commenting.
Last edited by Kelley Graham on Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:25 pm

Kelley Graham wrote:Original Mandarin culture no longer exists. Besides, new understanding is discovered and old ideas must be reexamined. Each generation contributes. I am not sentimental when it comes to History. Hard to do anything new, when using the old. New ideas generate new approaches to training. Yada yada. I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree over this.




looks that way,,, :)
Baring that, it might help to "show" what can be done with this method as "you" describe
that cannot be done using other methods.

All those I work with native Chinese speakers some have practiced for awhile...
They understand the terminology quite well, although working , practicing to make it
real takes a while.... ;)
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Kelley Graham on Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:29 pm

windwalker wrote:
Kelley Graham wrote:Original Mandarin culture no longer exists. Besides, new understanding is discovered and old ideas must be reexamined. Each generation contributes. I am not sentimental when it comes to History. Hard to do anything new, when using the old. New ideas generate new approaches to training. Yada yada. I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree over this.




looks that way,,, :)
Baring that, it might help to "show" what can be done with this method as "you" describe
that cannot be done using other methods.

All those I work with native Chinese speakers some have practiced for awhile...
They understand the terminology quite well, although working , practicing to make it
real takes a while.... ;)


To my understanding, anyone, with some depth of knowledge, would see the application of this concept without any further ado. Besides, concepts are not methods. I'm not discussing methods.
Last edited by Kelley Graham on Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby origami_itto on Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:24 am

I like the slack idea.

It's what Damo Mitchell talks about, among others.

The neigong aspects of practice directly address cultivating this. Bones go up, meat goes down.

This cultivates separation, giving you room to move and actually do Taijiquan.

It's not neutral, though, I feel it's more like the ball launch on a pinball machine. Sink to create potential energy like pulling the plunger, then relax to release that into kinetic energy.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby origami_itto on Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:05 am

Kelley Graham wrote:To my understanding, anyone, with some depth of knowledge, would see the application of this concept without any further ado. Besides, concepts are not methods. I'm not discussing methods.


Sifu, would it be accurate in your estimation to say that cultivating this quality, which is more a product of various connective and intermediate tissues than muscle, stretching and thickening to create the elasticity... Sorry got off track.

But cultivating this quality and the dependant abilities is why traditional strength training that relies on contraction of muscles and which increases tonus are not helpful and may even be harmful?
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby Bhassler on Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:01 am

Bhassler wrote:
"Neutral" as I described it is applied specifically to the skeleton within the closed system of the body. You can do whatever you want in your own descriptive system, I was just sharing where other people have used another term for the same thing, which was relevant to the question you asked. There's no point in arguing the validity of terms used by other people who aren't here and aren't pushing an agenda.

I added a bit on open vs closed systems in another reply. The entire point is discussing applicability of terms. Better terms, better understanding. Not sure what you mean by the last statement re: agenda. I don't believe I've attacked you personally? I'm not spamming the fist.
Last edited by Kelley Graham on Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:52 am

Neither hollows or projections
Does that not cover slack
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Re: Internal vs. external

Postby origami_itto on Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:08 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Neither hollows or projections
Does that not cover slack

I don't think that's the same thing here. Maybe slack itself is a confusing term because it tends to imply some emptiness like not enough tension pulling the silk.

I think what's being spoken to, regardless of the word, is what sung is approaching. Relaxed but not limp. Rising and sinking without bending your knees. Storing and releasing elastic energy into your body or someone else's.

The separation of bones and flesh is like un-knotting the bowstring and fastening it to the bow so it can be drawn and an arrow fired.

I think that if your Taijiquan does not have that practice you're essentially polishing a gun with no ammo and using it like a club. It might work, but try it with bullets and get back to me...
Last edited by origami_itto on Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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