Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

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Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

Postby Yeung on Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:21 am

The National Wushu Association of China is trying to revive its fail attempt in the 80’s to promote Tuishou as a national sport and the following is a Google translation of Chapter 5:

Provisional rules of All China Taijiquan Tuishou Competition (2018)

Chapter 5 Technical Requirements, Scoring Standards and Penalties
Article 20 Rules of Competition 1. The method elements of "pull, stroke, squeeze, press, pick, push, elbow, lean" (abbreviated as eight methods) must be adopted, and corresponding footwork. 2. The principles of "adhesion and adhesion" and "hardness and softness" must be implemented. 3. The offensive action must be completed in the crosshand (four forehand) state. 10 Article 21 Competition Method 1. Demonstration of Taijiquan Push Hands Techniques-Joint Hands Demonstration (1) After the athletes of both sides are on the field, they will first demonstrate the basic techniques of Tai Chi push hands, which is called "join hands" demonstration. (2) The basic techniques for athletes to push their hands with Tai Chi: combined four forehands, four forehands in sequence, large strokes, arm wrap, single push hands, double push hands, etc., with the corresponding footwork, arrange a 30-second combined action Take the assessment. (3) In the first 30 seconds, the white player takes the lead and the black player follows; in the last 30 seconds, the black player takes the lead and the white player follows. (4) After the hands-on show, the athletes of both sides stand on both sides of the field, waiting for the referee to show their points. 2. Taijiquan push hand actual competition (1) When the referee issued the "preparation" command on the spot, the athletes of both sides started and moved up into a joint gesture. White leads in the first round, and black leads in the second round. (2) At the beginning of the first round, the two teams' right foot is in front and each other's right hands are placed; after the second round, the left foot is forward and each other's left hands are placed. (3) At the beginning of each round, the athletes of both sides step on the center circle with their front feet and join hands. After the referee sends a start signal on the field, the game begins. (4) At the beginning of each round, the referee must prompt either White or Black to lead the team. Athletes must cross hands for more than two laps before attacking the opponent; when the referee calls for a stop, both sides must cross hands for more than one lap. Can attack; athletes must attack the opponent in a crosshand state during the game. (5) In the course of the match, the two sides let go, and the referee did not call to stop, the two sides can join hands and attack directly. (6) After the match, under the instructions of the referee on the field, the athletes stand on both sides of the referee and wait for the result of the match to be announced. Article 22. The part of the attack is the part of the torso and arms below the neck and above the pubic bone. Article 23. Prohibited areas (1) The neck and above. (2) The pubic bone and below the pubic bone.
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Re: Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

Postby Yeung on Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:26 am

The Chinese version is available in the following link:

《武术太极拳推手竞赛规则(2018试行版)》
http://www.suitaiji.com/upload/default/ ... c17e41.pdf
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Re: Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:38 am

Shuai Jiao would be a better "folk" sport.
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Re: Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

Postby everything on Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:07 am

All "folks" like wrestling.
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Re: Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

Postby Steve James on Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:10 am

GrahamB wrote:Shuai Jiao would be a better "folk" sport.


I agree. But, "who" invented Shuai Jiao? Then again, that makes it a better candidate for "folk" status.

Taijiquan is interesting because it was adopted and promoted by the upperr classes, rather than the folk. One could compare it on one hand to capoeira in Brazil, which was illegal at first, but became a national pastime. Sumo, otoh, (iinm Graham) wasn't practiced by the elites. Personally, I could see either of them considered folk arts and sports without changing much.

Taijiquan as a sport, ok, it's possible. Break-dancing will be a sport. I'm not really concerned about the rules. My complaint is that it won't help taijiquan's reputation as a martial art. Oh well, I guess we'll have to see what happens.
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Re: Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:24 am

Yeah, I was thinking of "folk wrestling" which you find in almost every culture that hasn't got rid of it (and even then it must have existed before). Before the standardisation of Sumo into the version that was popular as entertainment, every Shrine in Japan had it's own folk style.

We still have some of it left in England - Cornish Wrestling is a good example. Some of it we've only just lost - Irish Collar and Elbow used to be huge, even in America, sadly completely gone now.

"Folk" styles naturally evolve, like language, out of the common folk of any place. "Push hands" in contrast I feel was imposed externally, rather than evolved out of a natural practice. I think even in Chen village it's Shuai Jiao that is actually practiced by the youngsters, or was actually practiced as the common way of "grappling". Push hands is kind of a Ching Royal court-approved, civilised, sanitised version of it ;D

A great look at all the folk wrestling styles from around the world and their history is found here: https://thousandholds.net/
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Re: Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

Postby Yeung on Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:26 am

The failure of Tuishou competition in the 80’s was due to participants were coming from Shuai Jiao and Xingyiquan, and the pure Taijiquan practitioners organized the events were not prepared themselves for it. I hope this time they will do better, maybe “to lead into emptiness” will be put into practice and not just theory:

To Lead Into Emptiness 引进落空
by Strange on Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:22 am

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 96#p350169
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Re: Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

Postby everything on Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:46 pm

I think in past discussions, we basically said:

1. tuishou is a training exercise
2. if it's done as a wrestling competition, there are far more widely practiced (read: better, higher level of participants) established formats.
2b. to say something fails because better grapplers from more popular formats come in and win ---- well that just doesn't make any sense at all, unless we are only talking about learning as in point 1 above. if we are talking about that and talking about "internal" as Sun defines it, do that first. otherwise, do the best possible wrestling you can find. ideally do both, but definitely do the latter.

so basically don't do tuishou and expect it to be high level. that's a fool's errand.
Last edited by everything on Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

Postby Yeung on Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:35 am

Chinese Wushu Association scrapped Tuishou Competition from the All China Taijiquan Championship in the early 90's, and sort of promoting the Taiji Tuishou sets. Maybe I should not call that a failure but we do learn from our mistakes. It is no easy task to develop a training exercise into a open sport, I think this time they are trying to do it right. From my observation, they organized training of coaches and referees in April 2018, and in 1st July 2020 they formed the Taijiquan Tuishou Research Centre in Beijing.
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Re: Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

Postby everything on Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:48 am

putting aside that tuishou's best contribution to tai chi or MA in general isn't as a wrestling comp,

why/how would they try to compete against more established grappling formats in the world or even just in China?
sumo
judo
shuai jiao
Greco-Roman
no gi submissions wrestling
etc. etc.

is there some other ruleset that seems interesting to someone somewhere not already covered with a huge amount of participation? I doubt it, but you never know. Maybe there is something new or old people would love to do.
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Re: Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:56 pm

everything wrote:putting aside that tuishou's best contribution to tai chi or MA in general isn't as a wrestling comp,

why/how would they try to compete against more established grappling formats in the world or even just in China?
sumo
judo
shuai jiao
Greco-Roman
no gi submissions wrestling
etc. etc.

is there some other ruleset that seems interesting to someone somewhere not already covered with a huge amount of participation? I doubt it, but you never know. Maybe there is something new or old people would love to do.

The original purpose of tuishou is to develop skills that can be used in self defense—where there are no rules. So, stick, adhere, join, follow. “lead into emptiness," etc., should work outside of a restricted push hands ruleset, like in judo, shuai jiao or wrestling.
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Re: Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

Postby everything on Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:54 pm

yes so why make a brand new wrestling sport? if there is some good reason, sure. at the very least, it seems silly.

there doesn't even need to be a different mma ruleset (although sanshou was super cool back in the Cung Le days, at least).
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Re: Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

Postby Bao on Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:10 pm

Before the CCP started to brand Chenjiagou as the "Birthplace of Tai chi", Tai Chi practitioners if they wanted to compete did so in Sanda tournaments. The focus on PH as competition is exactly what has been detrimental to Tai Chi as a fighting art.

And everyone keep saying that "Chen style is the most martial tai chi style". What a joke. In fact, the focus on fake wrestling makes it the least martial tai chi style.
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Re: Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

Postby rojcewiczj on Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:57 pm

I think that Tui Shou is best practiced as Sumo without the belt gripping. The issue with most grappling competitions is that they steer away from quick pushes and pulls and tend to focus on grip fighting. In Sumo wrestling, one valid approach is to be a push/palm fighter, when this style is done well it captures many internal martial art principles. I think its a mistake to force some sort of Taiji pattern movements on a competition format. The issue is more about steering away from gripping and towards utilizing palm strikes and deflections to control your opponent. If you are skilled at quick pushes and pulls you can counter lesser strikers and grapplers, without specializing in long range striking(kick-boxing) or grip fighting(judo, freestyle).
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Re: Taijiquan Tuishou is not even a folk sport

Postby Steve James on Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:29 pm

How about this. They can figure out a push hands competitive style, but all the competitions are against practitioners of other styles -- like a taiji push hands ufc.

Taijiquan has too many "long fist" elements, imo, to limit it to grappling. Chen tjq (phs competitions) stress wrestling-type techniques. It'd be relatively easy to make it the standard, but there are loads of other styles that use far more techniques in their phs, or just more pure striking.
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