Close the opening

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Close the opening

Postby johnwang on Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:16 pm

When you throw a punch, you will create some opening. Your opponent will punch through that opening,

In the following clip, A throws a left hook. B uses a right hook to punch through the opening that A has just created.

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If A can change his left hook into a back fist as shown in the following clip, A can close the opening that he has just created. B's right hook will be blocked by A's left back fist.

It's always a good idea to "close the opening that you have just created" when you miss your punch. In order to do that, you have to think ahead.

Your thought?

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Last edited by johnwang on Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Close the opening

Postby .Q. on Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:45 am

After looking at it a few times I don't think A was throwing a hook. I think he was trying to block/grab B's right arm but B moved his arm out of the way using the motion of a hook. The timing was so precise A had no time to react.
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Re: Close the opening

Postby GrahamB on Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:53 am

Cung Le is hitting him with enough power to knock him out with both his feet off the ground - I can feel a great disturbance in the force..... I can hear the sound of a thousand Tai Chi voices crying out... having their illusions shattered in unison! ;D

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Last edited by GrahamB on Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Close the opening

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:14 am

johnwang wrote:When you throw a punch, you will create some opening. Your opponent will punch through that opening,

Not necessarily, it depends on how and/or when you throw a punch.

johnwang wrote:In the following clip, A throws a left hook. B uses a right hook to punch through the opening that A has just created.

Image

No. Again, A tries to pull B's guard.

johnwang wrote:If A can change his left hook into a back fist as shown in the following clip, A can close the opening that he has just created. B's right hook will be blocked by A's left back fist.

No, A can't. No, it won't be blocked. B's right hook lands before A's rear foot firmly plants—making a subsequent hook and back fist/block ineffective. "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." -Mike Tyson

johnwang wrote:It's always a good idea to "close the opening that you have just created" when you miss your punch. In order to do that, you have to think ahead.

Your thought?

Image

This second clip is not the same. There is no kick, both feet are on the ground. Regardless, B's hook can still get around this "back fist."

You are not thinking ahead. When you "miss your punch," you should be in a position to not get hit.
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Re: Close the opening

Postby johnwang on Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:40 pm

.Q. wrote:I think he was trying to block/grab B's right arm but B moved his arm out of the way using the motion of a hook. The timing was so precise A had no time to react.

The moment that his left arm downward parry misses the contact, the moment that he should change his downward parry (or wrist grab) into an arm wrap (back fist, outward block, or comb hair).

He initials the downward parry. He should know what will happen afterward.
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Re: Close the opening

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:55 pm

johnwang wrote:
.Q. wrote:I think he was trying to block/grab B's right arm but B moved his arm out of the way using the motion of a hook. The timing was so precise A had no time to react.

The moment that his left arm downward parry misses the contact, the moment that he should change his downward parry (or wrist grab) into an arm wrap (back fist, outward block, or comb hair).

He initials the downward parry. He should know what will happen afterward.

I believe you're missing it.

The moment A misses, B rotates his arm and punches A in the face, before A can plant his rear foot and "change his downward parry into an arm wrap, etc."

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Re: Close the opening

Postby yeniseri on Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:14 pm

Vale! Makes tactical sense as in covereing a withdrawal or upon entry to a target, have a covering group, security group or blocking group watch for anything outside zone x. Depending on 'action" each group can change status depending on the size of the enemy or development from that area of responsiblity. Cung Le was always great in that aspect because he always incorporated the 'shuai" (throwing) of CMA so he was keen on closing the exits before "advancing" or "retreating".

NOTE: An "advance' is not always an advance nor is a retreat always a retreat because one is backing away from the zone of contention
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Re: Close the opening

Postby Steve James on Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:29 pm

I don't think it would be easy to change a committed hook into a backfist. I think you're right that he didn't cover an opening. However, the real issue (imo) is simply that he missed whatever he was trying to do. If he'd stay under control, he'd have been able to defend.

Cung Le was doing good taiji :). He made the opponent miss, lose his balance, and then knocked him down. Ime, few of the theories work once you get hit right.
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Re: Close the opening

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:45 pm

Going off on a tagent here, but I think the wide haymaker by Cung Le is a good example that the straight-line principle (i.e., straight punches reach the target faster and is thus more effective) taught in certain TMA systems often don't pan out in a fight.

Curved punches are more unpredictable and difficult to block or dodge compared to straight ones.
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Re: Close the opening

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:52 am

C.J.W. wrote:Going off on a tagent here, but I think the wide haymaker by Cung Le is a good example that the straight-line principle (i.e., straight punches reach the target faster and is thus more effective) taught in certain TMA systems often don't pan out in a fight.

Curved punches are more unpredictable and difficult to block or dodge compared to straight ones.

Using only straight punches limits angles and other advantages. However, straight punches beat curved with proper timing.

Overhand right beats low kick and hook:

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Re: Close the opening

Postby Bob on Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:03 am

The praying mantis systems, with a little insight, uses many similar techniques. You can find something very similar in the liu he duan chui I practice - if you miss then the follow up is through the centerline with two upper cuts

Another idea is to use a tight hook with the idea of striking the temple at a 45 degree folding using the knuckle of the forefinger to strike the temple - if blocked or missed the upper cut follows - as a searching taiji practitioner, 30+ years in the past and "forced" to do these drills by a teacher who knew the street well I thank him for this - I hated these drills but only much later did I come to understand and appreciate the usage

It was of practical use for a close friend who was a bouncer in the bar - struck the guys temple and knocked him out using the technique with a strike to temple with the knuckle of the fore finger.

You can find the flavor of such usage in the clips below - of course conceal and carry has changed the real world game plan LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY2THIpSHCg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6GyaYUQHOw

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