A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby BruceP on Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:15 pm

johnwang wrote:The circular punch is also a nice bridge between the striking art and the throwing art, If you can circular punch on your opponent's head, at the same time you horse back kick his leg/legs, you can take your opponent down.

Image



Kinda like osoto-gari

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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby BruceP on Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:51 pm

Bao wrote:A neck drag works perfectly fine (no mantis hook necessary), it's a very useful technique...

...So yes, you can make it work outside a demo, not looking identical to a demo obviously, but adapted to the situation at hand.


This

Despite what the Brainy Smurfs say about 'what actually happens in real fights', the commitment to cover the distance as your covering (rear) hand slaps the 'opp's' lead hand and then your lead hand clears their arm allowing your rear hand entry to wrap or otherwise control their neck is all that's needed to get from start to finish in what's demoed in the first clip.

Distancing beyond the opp's operable range and then safely shortening the distance before the opp can do anything about it, was my first thought while reading John's opening post.
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:40 pm

BruceP wrote:
Bao wrote:A neck drag works perfectly fine (no mantis hook necessary), it's a very useful technique...

...So yes, you can make it work outside a demo, not looking identical to a demo obviously, but adapted to the situation at hand.


This

Despite what the Brainy Smurfs say about 'what actually happens in real fights', the commitment to cover the distance as your covering (rear) hand slaps the 'opp's' lead hand and then your lead hand clears their arm allowing your rear hand entry to wrap or otherwise control their neck is all that's needed to get from start to finish in what's demoed in the first clip.

Distancing beyond the opp's operable range and then safely shortening the distance before the opp can do anything about it, was my first thought while reading John's opening post.


Using your rear hand to "slap the lead hand" may open/square you up even more. The opponent's rear hand may be free to punch you in the face.

Drawing a person to chase hands can be a safe and effective way to attack. In the clip below, let's say A feints/draws B to trap/chase his lead arm. As B parries down, A retracts his lead arm while his other arm punches B in the face. A took one beat to hit/hook B, while the OP took 2 or 3. A moves and counters B's trapping, unlike in the OP.

marvin8 wrote:Note that A's first contact is a punch on B's face, while B is chasing the lead arm trap.
marvin8 wrote:Problem: While B is doing three actions (chasing hands) to A's one action (e.g., lure w/jab), A can punch B's face (chase center):
Image


Same concept with Osoto gari: feint low (draw opponent's hands low), hook high to Osoto gari:

Image
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby Bob on Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:28 am

I know this is an old clip and perhaps it isn't as useful in the ring as it appears but with reference to the MooneyMantis clips posted previously this illustrates the combinations and the potential use of mantis - there are so many moving and static combinations such that the system should not be judged by one or two clips illustrating its usage - in the early training days these type of drills were practiced in addition to many other auxilliary exercises for strength, flexibility and kicking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vYHApd4B-o

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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby yeniseri on Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:28 pm

I am considered an old man ;D but thriking and throwiong are 2 sides of the same coin. Long range is 'striking' (feeling out, and even the beginnings of feeling out the 'offensive') and close range is "throwing" so you need to be close to your opponent. Though I got into few fights, one cannot apply "technique" from the git go so I am surprised that people would say that the first example is not real. It is but it comes later in the game depending on the expeiience of both people.
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby johnwang on Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:10 pm

yeniseri wrote:people would say that the first example is not real.

For the 1st GIF, if you move both hands forward together,

- right hand toward your opponent's wrist,
- left hand toward his elbow,

that's just 1 move. By using that 1 move, you can guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm. Anything can happen after that.

The GIF shows 1, 2, 3. But it can be just 1, 2 (if include the neck wiping hand).

Image
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby bailewen on Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:46 am

GrahamB wrote:Thoughts:

I don't think those hand trapping things actually work like that outside of demos. I'm sure somebody can find a clip of one working somewhere, but that's the point - it's like finding a needle in a haystack.

I put one hand on your arm - then another, then hit you. Yeah right. That'll work. Provided you stand still and let me do it.

Doesn't need to change much.

I mean, I could make the same argument about drilling arm drags. Difference, of course, is that you get yanked off balance almost from the first contact, but it's still a sort of cooperative 1-2-3 drill. It feels like barely yesterday when I was still making "grab my hand" jokes about Aikido, but then just dabbled in BJJ and found myself doing an awful lot of entries that started out by grabbing the other guys wrist. Heck, half the battle sometimes seems to be about just getting the right grip on that wrist (or ankle/sleeve/etc)

I guess the mantis gif does seem to involve too many steps as he "climbs" up the arm. If that initial lop sau was more vigorous and the second hand just cut to the chase and hooked the neck, I would find the sequence more convincing. I'm just pretty reluctant to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Cloud hands seemed pretty impractical to me until I spent some time with a wrestler doing arm-drag to take the back combinations in sets of 10, alternating left and right. His fireman's carry entry was basically cloud hands into fan through the back.
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby oldEurope on Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:02 am

Just got this video recommended the other day, thought it fits in the discussion. He´s an MMA/Muay Thai guy, but I like that he shows how he uses traps succesfully with resisting opponents (though mostly one-hand-traps):

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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby Bob on Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:58 pm

Couple of views from the 8 Step Praying Mantis system (GM Wei Xiao Tang):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOpL9AZfIsE



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoHnDGHs75Y



General Northern Praying Mantis (old clip):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0i3HYXzDNc

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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby Subitai on Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:47 am

oldEurope wrote:Just got this video recommended the other day, thought it fits in the discussion. He´s an MMA/Muay Thai guy, but I like that he shows how he uses traps succesfully with resisting opponents (though mostly one-hand-traps):



Nice post "oldEurope"...

I've used similar methods in San shou and mma myself successfully.

=======================================================================
This is not aimed at you...but I do mean sarcasm below...

BUT Oh boy, when Jeff Chan (mma) does a good job of showing (pretty much the 1st 5min of video) "the hand doesn't come back empty". .... nothing...no complaints. Why, cause it's an MMA guy showing what he calls "hand trap" ?

But it is clearly, he reaches out and grabs or controls his opponents arms. From the jump at about (0:44sec), .."as we reach our hand forward"

He also calls it, "AKA peeling your opponents guard" Wow what a NEW concept! Never heard of that before. :-\

* I thought "reaching" out and or trying to control your opponents limbs will get you killed? (again sarcasm)

answer = YES and NO.... Not if you know what your doing......it depends on who is better and who has the experience to make it work.

Boom done, mabe we can put that to bed now.
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby johnwang on Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:48 pm

Subitai wrote:

Thanks for showing this clip.

I like the double hooks hand trap.

Image

But I like to use my leading arm instead.

Image
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