A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

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A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby johnwang on Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:27 am

By using the praying mantis Mo Pan Shou 磨盘手, your

- left hand can control on your opponent's leading arm elbow joint.
- right hand can control on the back of your opponent's neck (throat, or side of the face).

From there, you can use foot sweep, shin bite, scoop, scoop kick, Knee seize, ankle pick, slant cut, front cut, outer hook, ..., or just use the wheeling step to lead your opponent into the emptiness.

IMO, the praying mantis Mo Pan Shou 磨盘手 can be a powerful link between the striking art and the throwing art. It also serve as an effective "guard opener".

Your thought?

Image

Use neck wiping to lead your opponent into the emptiness.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:43 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby Bao on Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:25 pm

Think this was the very first technique I learned in Cheng Bagua as an application to the single palm change. But we were taught to follow the direction of the spine to pull the opponent to lay flat on the ground.

But I think that if I was able to go the side of the opponent, I would rather try to continue more behind him and stretch my (right) arm in front of his throat (instead of pulling behind his neck,) and pull him down on his back, or go for a strangulation (left arm push against the back of his neck). Also, it's unnecessary trying to maintain control over his left arm by changing the grip on it. Just slap it away while stepping to the side is enough and faster.

Everything in Bagua works as a link between striking and throwing. No need to use a hook.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:58 am

Thoughts:

I don't think those hand trapping things actually work like that outside of demos. I'm sure somebody can find a clip of one working somewhere, but that's the point - it's like finding a needle in a haystack.

I put one hand on your arm - then another, then hit you. Yeah right. That'll work. Provided you stand still and let me do it.

Why do CMA spend so long on stuff like this that has no translation into "the fight"?

Why not focus on methods of closing the gap that tend to actually work in fights?
I could be wrong.
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby Bao on Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:29 am

A neck drag works perfectly fine (no mantis hook necessary), it's a very useful technique. At a festival a few years ago, I witnessed a security guard bringing an aggressive spectator down to the ground with the same technique. What he did looked very similar to the first demo. So yes, you can make it work outside a demo, not looking identical to a demo obviously, but adapted to the situation at hand.
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby Finny on Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:12 am

GrahamB wrote:Thoughts:

I don't think those hand trapping things actually work like that outside of demos. I'm sure somebody can find a clip of one working somewhere, but that's the point - it's like finding a needle in a haystack.

I put one hand on your arm - then another, then hit you. Yeah right. That'll work. Provided you stand still and let me do it.



This

Bao wrote:A neck drag works perfectly fine (no mantis hook necessary), it's a very useful technique. At a festival a few years ago, I witnessed a security guard bringing an aggressive spectator down to the ground with the same technique. What he did looked very similar to the first demo. So yes, you can make it work outside a demo, not looking identical to a demo obviously, but adapted to the situation at hand.


The point is not the neck drag - the point is the 'bridge between the striking art and the throwing art' which obviously refers to the trapping 'bridge', not the grappling neck drag.

Like G, my first thought is yeah, looks good but a perfect example of oft-demo'd techniques that don't actually work when someone tries to actually swing at you.
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby Finny on Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:19 am

My belated thoughts - striking is the bridge between striking and grappling, trying to 'trap' is a fixation that we have seen lead to people being hit. To enter, enter throwing strikes of your own - there's a reason that's the overwhelming entering strategy adopted in all striking based combat sports. Even when I've seen 'trapping' employed in mma or other striking sports, it is never EVER in the 'trap this then pass it to the other hand and hit' style. There is absolutely no debate; there just is not time to 'trap left hand, pass to the right hand, then move in to neck drag' if an opponent is actually moving.
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby Bao on Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:37 am

Finny wrote:The point is not the neck drag - the point is the 'bridge between the striking art and the throwing art' which obviously refers to the trapping 'bridge', not the grappling neck drag.

Like G, my first thought is yeah, looks good but a perfect example of oft-demo'd techniques that don't actually work when someone tries to actually swing at you.


I see what you mean. It's a similar technique in both pics so I thought about the technique as an example of bridging punches and throws. However, going from striking range to throwing range is all bridging striking to throwing, IMO. Nothing says that you have to use the first movements or any similar way to control the arm while striking. IMO, it's the footwork and closing the gap that works as a bridge between striking and throwing. How you keep your hands on your opponents arms or control them has very little to do with this.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:11 am

johnwang wrote:IMO, the praying mantis Mo Pan Shou 磨盘手 can be a powerful link between the striking art and the throwing art. It also serve as an effective "guard opener".

Your thought?

Image

That is not a realistic demo of "bridging between the striking art and the throwing art," because

1. Trained strikers/kickers will not stand that close. Safe fighting distance is outside of striking and kicking range.
2. The opponent will move or punch you in the face before you step and perform multiple actions.
3. Most strikers will stand orthodox, which may require you to throw/train with your left side.

Ramsey addresses these problems in my post, "Speedbag, Taiji, WC: bridge gap between striking & grappling:"

marvin8 wrote:At 1:23, Ramsey says:

Ramsey Dewey wrote:Here’s a big mistake a lot of people make with hand fighting. You’ll see in martial arts like wing chun, where people stand toe to toe. And, they start doing all this hand fighting stuff to try to get in there. Nobody stays there in that range. If we’re really fighting and I’m trying to move Eddie’s hands out of the way so I can hit, look he moved (yielded), right? So, I’m going to have to use my jab and my footwork to determine whether or not Eddie is at a range where I can hand fight with him. If he moves away, he’s too far away. If I start reaching for anything (chasing hands) trying to fight this way, he’s going to punch me in the face. I’m dead, right?...
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby Bob on Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:50 am

Generally speaking, if I recall correctly, that most praying mantis drills and applications were done in 3 or 5 combinations (kicks, punches, slaps, eye strikes - you can see the potential in the clip for a quick sweep or what we called a hidden dart kick aimed at the ankle so the combination is in there for many ways to go in and out).

So I think I would view the above clip as instructional - again people will always find exceptions but a primary praying mantis strategy, again generally speaking, is not to go toe-to-toe but to go in fast, do the combinations, and go back fast - a lot of drills and applications are done from a 45 degree movement and almost always employ some type of kicking - speed and a springing like body are really the plus side of an effective practitioner.

You can get some idea from the latter part of the clip below (the clip does not exhaust the range of kicking, punching, grabbing etc. etc. combinations.

There also is lot of strength training and more or less static drills & exercises.
The well seasoned praying mantis practitioner carries an extensive tool box of them.

Often kicks are practiced in static postures (raising the knee up for training but not necessary in applications for it diminishes speed) - then kicks become moving (dynamic sort of drills) and then kicking pads or padded boards are used with partners in both static and moving applications.

It's a young person's game and quite an extensive system so sometimes it is very difficult to judge the applications and jiben gong by a couple of clips that are reductive in nature. It's often an underrated system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8B4Pnizhhc

Last edited by Bob on Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby Finny on Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:48 pm

Bao wrote:Nothing says that you have to use the first movements or any similar way to control the arm while striking. IMO, it's the footwork and closing the gap that works as a bridge between striking and throwing. How you keep your hands on your opponents arms or control them has very little to do with this.


Absolutely, footwork and movement are without a doubt a key element to 'bridging between striking and throwing'.
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:28 pm

Finny wrote:Absolutely, footwork and movement are without a doubt a key element to 'bridging between striking and throwing'.

When your opponent steps back his leading leg, you can attack his other leg. This depend on

- where you land your 1st leg, and
- which leg that you land.

This also depend on how you may force your opponent to step back.

- How to make your opponent to switch weight from one leg to another?
- How to take advantage on your opponent's weight shifting?

The more that I think, the more that I feel that most CMA systems don't spend enough training in this area.

Why? Can someone answer my question?
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby Subitai on Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:34 pm

I like what Graham said,
==============================================================
But if we had to hash it out, here we go again! The title of Johns thread is: "A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art"

* John then talks about ultimately getting a hand on his opponent’s neck to effect some sort of technique or control. But the issue is how you get there? Also would you also consider getting close enough to Neck Clinch the same or equivalent?

* As in, in Johns title... do you use some sort of striking to get in close enough to be able to throw? The example given is getting to the opponents neck.

IF THAT IS IN FACT THE GOAL, it's not that hard.

If all you had to do was get to a clinch all you have to do is set up your opponent and do it. (Which I did a search on my posts and I have written about the importance of setting it up in some form or fashion over 70 times since I’ve been on this board ) I mean, you can just use timing to get there and reach in almost like a shot or you can strike your way in and then grab him. Which I think John is more concerned with in this post.

What some here don't like is how the big Sifu shows it in the video. Of that I would agree with the criticisms.

Lastly, Not the Ramsey post reference again??? Ok, then i'll also say, a way around it that Ramsey demoed himself was to use Intercept...
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby johnwang on Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:36 pm

Subitai wrote:* John then talks about ultimately getting a hand on his opponent’s neck to effect some sort of technique or control.

When you use 1, 2 "磨盘手 Mo Pan Shou - double circular palms", your 3rd move can be a hand

1. behind your opponent's neck (same as hammer fist) - so you can pull your opponent's head down.
2. on the far side of his face (same as hook punch) - so you can pull his head side way toward you.
3. on the near side of his face (same as back fist) - so you can push his head side way away from you.
4. on his neck (same as straight punch) - so you can push him back.
5. under his chin (same as uppercut) - so you can push his head back.

Your option is many.
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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby BruceP on Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:27 pm

johnwang wrote:
- How to make your opponent to switch weight from one leg to another?
- How to take advantage on your opponent's weight shifting?



One way that has worked for me in and out of the ring is to show the opp (guy on the left) a big, overt kick - which is actually a step - which is actually a kick - then blast him before he can recover his footing.

In this clip, the pressure I created by throwing my hands forced him to initiate the grappling to stop my punches. I was going to supplex him, but he was already lifting my wrists before I got out of his headlock:


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Re: A bridge between the striking art and the throwing art

Postby johnwang on Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:05 pm

The circular punch is also a nice bridge between the striking art and the throwing art, If you can circular punch on your opponent's head, at the same time you horse back kick his leg/legs, you can take your opponent down.

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