the training purpose of tangnibu

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

the training purpose of tangnibu

Postby Tom on Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:18 pm

Andrea Falk is an excellent arts practitioner and teacher with decades of experience training various styles of baguazhang under highly-skilled teachers. Back in 1990 she did a very limited (sample of one) gait/force study comparing the tangnibu (mud-wading) and heel-toe stepping methods of baguazhang with a "normal" walk. Her analysis of the findings and her conclusion should be of interest to baguazhang practitioners. Andrea did the mini-study because there did not appear to be any other study/measurement of gait and ground-reaction forces with baguazhang stepping at the time (I still don't know of any other studies).
:

http://www.thewushucentre.ca/book-translations/downloads/gait_study1990.pdf
“Famous teachers are easy to find. It’s finding friends along the way that is hard.” -- Lü Dongbin
User avatar
Tom
Administrator
 
Posts: 4689
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:33 am

Re: the training purpose of tangnibu

Postby yeniseri on Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:55 pm

On its own merit, tangnibu (mud walking step) was said to be so named based on the mud pathways i.e. unpaved walkaways of the past 100 years in China therefore said pattern of walking and its function was needed as a break in the execution of tactical responses (be they routines, training patterns, etc) and I referene this because paquazanhg adepts do not do well in modern day combat sports and ata time where CMA is barely holding on to the mantles of the last century.

I repeat, on its merit and in isolation tangnibu is wonderful but when assessed in similar combat conditions, tangnibu falls on its face!
The few well known masters are that but the multitude of their students do not fare well.
It also could be that training of the past has not kept up with current physical conditioning and training protocols. Just sayin' ???
Last edited by yeniseri on Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When fascism comes to US America, It will be wrapped in the US flag and waving a cross. An astute patriot
yeniseri
Wuji
 
Posts: 3319
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:49 pm
Location: USA

Re: the training purpose of tangnibu

Postby Trick on Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:16 am

mud walk or friction step is related to the practice of the 'swimming in air' method, simply as that,,,,Its internal practice, which mean special mind methods applied to work directly on the neural system
Trick
Anjing
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:51 pm

Re: the training purpose of tangnibu

Postby Bao on Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:41 am

As a practice, mud wading steps only works on smooths, even surfaces. So it's pretty useless as overall footwork. I.e. walking this way when you fight is just ridiculous. For internal practice or as neigong as mentioned above, it's fine.

But remember that i'ts foremost a trademark of Cheng style, and that the founder of this style, Cheng Tinghua, was a wrestler. The mud wading steps is merely a tactical method in Chinese wrestling to slip your foot close and behind the opponent's foot/leg while keeping it close to the ground, in order to hide your footwork, trying to not show your opponent what you do. It's just one tactical method of many different footwork strategies. This is also the very reason why you practice mud-wading steps in conjunction with inwards stepping, Koubu, and outward stepping. These stances and transitions are meant to be used to wrap your legs around your opponent's. So when you practice these things together, and change from outwards and inwards angles, the footwork will look circular while the practitioner keep spinning. Thus the whole idea of circle walking with mud-wading steps is merely derived from a way (one way of many others) to practice one type of very basic tactical foot and leg methods.

So I am not convinced that Dong Haichuan taught his original style walking in a circle or that it comes from Daoist practice (I've never seen neigong or found other taoist exercise practiced this way walking in circles). It was his student Cheng Tinghua who had the wrestling background.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7813
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: the training purpose of tangnibu

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:07 am

I'm reminded of the story of the cannons and the soldiers, regarding tradition in martial arts:

Image

Image
If you don't become the ocean you'll be seasick every day.
Heretics podcast | The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12522
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: the training purpose of tangnibu

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:22 am

Bao wrote:So I am not convinced that Dong Haichuan taught his original style walking in a circle or that it comes from Daoist practice (I've never seen neigong or found other taoist exercise practiced this way walking in circles). It was his student Cheng Tinghua who had the wrestling background.


Taoist rituals tend to be performed in front of an alter, so there's no walking around in a big circle, but they do circle around a bit quite often - see 16.00 here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPHHnmTwxVg



Shamans however definitely do walk around in a big circle, often in front of a bonfire - especially in Mongolia, which is where Dong and Yin Fu lived for 10 years as Tax collectors, but nobody seems to connect Baguazhang to Mongolia - I don't know why, especially as there are obvious visual similarities between popular bagua techniques and mongolian bow methods on horseback.
If you don't become the ocean you'll be seasick every day.
Heretics podcast | The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12522
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: the training purpose of tangnibu

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:56 am

Image

Shaman's drum = Wind fire wheel?

Image
Last edited by GrahamB on Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you don't become the ocean you'll be seasick every day.
Heretics podcast | The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12522
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: the training purpose of tangnibu

Postby Bao on Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:14 am

Taoist rituals tend to be performed in front of an alter, so there's no walking around in a big circle, but they do circle around a bit quite often - see 16.00 here:


I didn't mention "ritual" or ceremonies. What people usually say about Bagua is that the circle walking comes from Taoist health exercises, Daoyin or median related exercises. This is what I object to. Similar stuff to walking around in circles inside a crowd, spreading scents or bless people around, can be found in all religions. However, I do believe that ceremony and ritual are closer to Chinese martial arts exercises than what most people would like to admit. Lately in an article I even proposed that silk reeling exercises seen in Chen Tai Chi have developed straight from Chinese religious rituals (https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... chi-chuan/). Due to the practicality and applications of the mud wading stepping I do have a very hard time to see an exact connection between Taoist rites and Bagua circle walking. There might be a connection, but I don't believe it's in the way people usually describe this relationship.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7813
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: the training purpose of tangnibu

Postby JessOBrien on Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:49 am

I almost slipped on my ass circle walking in the back yard last night.
When it's raining the mud is like ice, each step has to be super careful, forget fancy moves or speed, just staying vertical is very difficult.

It's not pretty. But doing this for a long time has made me much more balanced, stable and connected.
Plus the mud feels squishy between my toes.

It's like swinging a heavy baseball bat. When you get up to the plate your swing is was stronger and faster with a regular bat in hand.
CMA always does things the hard way! LOL
JessOBrien
Great Old One
 
Posts: 653
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:04 am

Re: the training purpose of tangnibu

Postby Tom on Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:12 pm

Bao wrote: [snip]

But remember that i'ts foremost a trademark of Cheng style, and that the founder of this style, Cheng Tinghua, was a wrestler. The mud wading steps is merely a tactical method in Chinese wrestling to slip your foot close and behind the opponent's foot/leg while keeping it close to the ground, in order to hide your footwork, trying to not show your opponent what you do. It's just one tactical method of many different footwork strategies. This is also the very reason why you practice mud-wading steps in conjunction with inwards stepping, Koubu, and outward stepping. These stances and transitions are meant to be used to wrap your legs around your opponent's. So when you practice these things together, and change from outwards and inwards angles, the footwork will look circular while the practitioner keep spinning. Thus the whole idea of circle walking with mud-wading steps is merely derived from a way (one way of many others) to practice one type of very basic tactical foot and leg methods.

So I am not convinced that Dong Haichuan taught his original style walking in a circle or that it comes from Daoist practice (I've never seen neigong or found other taoist exercise practiced this way walking in circles). It was his student Cheng Tinghua who had the wrestling background.


Nice summary, and along the lines of what I think as well. I will note that Shi Jidong's and Ma Weiqi's lines include a form of tangnibu--though not the long sliding step typically associated with Cheng lineages such as through the late Sun Zhijun (which has become widely known through wushu exhibitions of baguazhang).

There are definite benefits to leg strength, connection and stepping coordination from training tangnibu, although as many note the actual step itself has a very narrow practical applicability in fighting (e.g., John Wang's "shin bite").

My limited understanding of the historical practice of circle-walking is that it came only after basic training in other stepping patterns such as triangle. Kou bu and bai bu need not be confined to circle-walking practice.
Last edited by Tom on Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Famous teachers are easy to find. It’s finding friends along the way that is hard.” -- Lü Dongbin
User avatar
Tom
Administrator
 
Posts: 4689
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:33 am

Re: the training purpose of tangnibu

Postby Tom on Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:17 pm

Trick wrote:mud walk or friction step is related to the practice of the 'swimming in air' method, simply as that,,,,Its internal practice, which mean special mind methods applied to work directly on the neural system


I think there is a lot of truth to that, Rick. Physical training for new attributes and skills invariably involves reconfiguration of neural pathways affecting movement through the environment.

After doing this for some years, I also find that there is strengthening and increased stability of particular musculofascial connections along the kinematic chain involved in the stepping, if done correctly. I've noticed this especially around the knee and ankle, in both stepping and low kicks.
“Famous teachers are easy to find. It’s finding friends along the way that is hard.” -- Lü Dongbin
User avatar
Tom
Administrator
 
Posts: 4689
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:33 am

Re: the training purpose of tangnibu

Postby Bao on Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:58 pm

Tom wrote:My limited understanding of the historical practice of circle-walking is that it came only after basic training in other stepping patterns such as triangle. Kou bu and bai bu need not be confined to circle-walking practice.


Yes, the basic footwork pattern should probably be a triangle.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7813
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: the training purpose of tangnibu

Postby greytowhite on Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:24 pm

Honestly, I see more of Pencak Silat in Baguazhang than anything...
User avatar
greytowhite
Wuji
 
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:33 pm
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Re: the training purpose of tangnibu

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:54 am

greytowhite wrote:Honestly, I see more of Pencak Silat in Baguazhang than anything...


You've got Silat, I've got Mongolia, Scott P Philips has Nezha and his firewheels.... there are only more questions :)

Image
If you don't become the ocean you'll be seasick every day.
Heretics podcast | The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12522
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: the training purpose of tangnibu

Postby greytowhite on Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:21 am

GrahamB wrote:
greytowhite wrote:Honestly, I see more of Pencak Silat in Baguazhang than anything...


You've got Silat, I've got Mongolia, Scott P Philips has Nezha and his firewheels.... there are only more questions :)


Not so much - they all have Vajrayana Buddhism in common. Look at Amoghavajra - dude went from modern day Uzbekistan, all through Tibet (Mongolian ally/vassal state - lots of Vajrayana in Mongolia), Indonesia (again, lots of Vajrayana), and is considered one of the 8 Patriarchs of Shingon. There's a lot more connection between these regions than many like to admit. You ever look at Tibetan astrology? It's not that hard once you receive your empowerments and transmissions to see where these things are same, same but different from India to Japan.
Last edited by greytowhite on Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
greytowhite
Wuji
 
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:33 pm
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests