Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby wingchun on Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:19 am

"In the old days, Xing-yi, Taichi and Bagua were one art (same family). it says, Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs"

I can understand what this means in regards to the skillsets of "Xing-yi hands and Taichi waist", but can anyone explain what the Bagua legs skillset entails?
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby johnwang on Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:52 pm

You use leg to attack your opponent's leading leg, when he steps back, you use the same leg (or different leg) to attack his other leg. Does XingYi, Taiji, WC, long fist, ... use this strategy?
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby dspyrido on Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:35 pm

I'd have gone with TC hands (due to push hands and sensitivity), BG waist due to circle walking torso twisting & XY legs due to the compression/expansion explosiveness.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby GrahamB on Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:51 pm

Since you do Wing Chun you should not care? - Master Ip already sampled these Northern Fist Styles and reamined true to Wing Chun.

Last edited by GrahamB on Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby HotSoup on Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:04 pm

wingchun wrote: but can anyone explain what the Bagua legs skillset entails?

Evading an attack and countering from a better angle.

wingchun wrote:"In the old days, Xing-yi, Taichi and Bagua were one art (same family).

*In the modern days.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby johnwang on Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:49 pm

wingchun wrote: it says, Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs"...

That statement had been stated by the long fist GM Han Ching-Tan (1903 – 1976).
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:29 pm

Wasn’t it Sun Lu Tang who grouped them together
They didn’t come from the dividing of one art but the amalgamation of three
To sum up ba Kuas legs as just a foot sweep is to sell the whole art short
Yes you can take any part from the three and use it because they are all complete arts
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bao on Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:44 am

wayne hansen wrote:Wasn’t it Sun Lu Tang who grouped them together


No. Sun Lutang joined a group with XY and BGZ teachers. They studied each others arts and principles. So it wasn't Sun Lutang's idea to group them together, they all thought that their arts had history and principles in common.

Chen village documents include Xingyi. They studied and incorporated XY into Chen style. So Sun Lutang was not the first one to study XY and TJQ together.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:24 pm

I wasn't saying that
I thought he was the first to publicly call them sister arts
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bao on Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:05 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I wasn't saying that
I thought he was the first to publicly call them sister arts


He was probably the first to mention something in a published book about those three arts as internal arts or neijiaquan.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bob on Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:23 pm

Sun Lu Tang combined elements of xing yi and bagua into his taiji - There may be others who have done this but I am only aware of the Sun style of taijiquan that claims this blend. It sounds like something one might say about this style of taijiquan (Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs).
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bao on Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:01 pm

Bob wrote:Sun Lu Tang combined elements of xing yi and bagua into his taiji - There may be others who have done this but I am only aware of the Sun style of taijiquan that claims this blend. It sounds like something one might say about this style of taijiquan (Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs).


It’s pretty much on spot to say that it’s ‘the Sun style of taijiquan that claims this blend’. Stylists claim so, but Sun Lutang himself never did. I’ve said this before, but he didn’t ‘blend‘ the three. He added a little bit from XY and BG, but didn’t really add much at all. Maybe ‘Taiji waist, Bagua hands and Xingyi legs’ would be more accurate. The following steps or ‘huobu’ from Wu/Hao Taiji is quite similar to Xingyi footwork and the movements in Sun style are made more on a horizontal plane similar to Bagua movements. The form sequence and movements is virtually the same as Wu/Hao, but he studied with the Yang family as well so there’s an influence from Yang as well.

However, he and the others in the so called Wudang group labelled XY, BG, and TJ together as “Neijiaquan”. Who was the first to call them this is hard to say, but Sun mentions in his books that the dichotomy of nei and wai had been prevalent in his Martial arts circles for a long time and that this was a common belief.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bob on Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:09 pm

References to Sun Lu Tang's Taijiquan

“As all of the Sun taiji postures came from the arts of baguazhang, xingyiquan, and taijiquan that her father learned from his masters. These collective teachings were merged within the Sun Taiji form. Madam Sun told us that a person could practice Sun taiji without studying baguazhang, xingyiquan, or qigong, though to correctly approach and practice here family’s taji at a deeper level these arts must be addressed.”

Traditional Sun Lu Tang Style Tai-Chi Photographic Guidebook by Madam Sun Jian-Yun compiled & translated by Bradford Tyrey

“The addition of the toe-in and toe-out steps from the Ba Gua Zhang arts has the potential to greatly improve the flexibility of the hips, an area that normally receives little exercise.” P. 4
“After scores of years of research with the arts to Ta Ji Quan, Xing Yi Quan, and Bagua Zhang, Sun Lu Tang developed the Sun style of Tai Ji Quan. Sun Jian Yun (daughter) described this method as employing Ba Gua Zhang’s stepping method, Xing Yi Quan’s leg and waist methods, and Tai Ji Quan’s body softness.” P. 28
“. . . Sun Lu Tang modified the form he learned from Hao Wei Zhen, combining elements of both Xing Yi Quan and Bagua Zhang.” P. 45

A Study of Taijiquan by Sun Lu Tang translated by Tim Cartmell
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bao on Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:07 pm

I don’t believe that either Tyrey or Cartmell even knew what Hao style looks like when they wrote that. Virtually everything people claim comes from XY or BG is already there in the Hao form.

Hao
https://youtu.be/BPvAFPD8x4E

Sun
https://youtu.be/3AuGupAIUds


What Sun Lutang says is:

“... the three arts of Xingyi Boxing, Bagua Boxing, and Taiji Boxing merged to become a single essence. This single essence is yet separated into the three distinct systems. The postures of the three systems are different, but their principles are the same.“

He never said that he mixed BG or XY into his TJ, but that he found the same essence in all of them and uses the same principles for all of them. BG still remains BG. XY still remains XY. And TJ still remains TJ, which also means that his TJ is not a mix of the three arts.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bob on Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:42 pm

In the case of Cartmell that is his translation of Sun Lu Tang's book (I believe Cartmell may have learned directly under Sun Jian Yun but I am not sure) and Tyrey was simply conveying what Sun Lu Tang's daughter( Sun Jian Yun) told him and he also studied directly under her and done translations of Sun Lu Tang's works.

I am not a Sun style practitioner or a translator but it seems like his material is a reasonable source and reference for Sun Lu Tang's works.

http://neijiabooks.com/

1. The Internal Practices of Sun Lu-T’ang

2.Traditional Sun Lu-T’ang Style: Commentary by Madam Sun Jian-Yun

3.Traditional Sun Lu-T’ang Style Tai-Chi Photographic Guidebook
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