Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bao on Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:09 am

Bob wrote:In the case of Cartmell that is his translation of Sun Lu Tang's book (I believe Cartmell may have learned directly under Sun Jian Yun but I am not sure) and Tyrey was simply conveying what Sun Lu Tang's daughter( Sun Jian Yun) told him and he also studied directly under her and done translations of Sun Lu Tang's works.


So you would rather listen to their word before Sun Lutang himself? :-\

Yes Cartmell and Tyrey were direct students of Sun Jianyun. That doesn’t mean that they have understood everything or that everything they say is true.

Cartmell has written things as that Sun Lutang invented the term ”Neijiaquan” and that Sun designed his form so that you fight exactly as you do the form. If you or other people want to believe this and everything else he says they can do so. I don’t care.

I’ve had extremely well respected teachers who have studied with famous and well known masters as well. But I have brain enough to understand, and I am willing to admit, when they are wrong or speak BS.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby muttaqi on Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:34 pm

I’ve known Brad for years - we shared some of the same Xingyi and Bagua teachers in Beijing and I’ve further studied those arts (as well as Sun Taiji) from him once he was stateside again.

He most certainly had seen and interacted with Hao style teachers and understands Sun taiji’s connection to Hao. We’ve talked in depth about it.

Yes, the form is visibly essentially the same as Hao Style. It’s the methods that are practiced a certain way or explained by way of Xingyi and Bagua principles which give it some unique aspects. And these are explained in much greater detail via notes and oral teachings passed on from his students than one finds in his public books.

It’s important to keep in mind though, just as Sun Bagua is a branch of Cheng Style Bagua, and Sun Xingyiquan is primarily Hebei Style Xingyi etc. it’s not that Sun reinvented the wheel. He just choose to express his understanding of the arts that he learned and his name is attached to that understanding.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bao on Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:07 am

muttaqi wrote:I’ve known Brad for years ... He most certainly had seen and interacted with Hao style teachers and understands Sun taiji’s connection to Hao. We’ve talked in depth about it.


Interesting. Would be interesting to hear more about what you discussed.

It’s the methods that are practiced a certain way or explained by way of Xingyi and Bagua principles which give it some unique aspects. And these are explained in much greater detail via notes and oral teachings passed on from his students than one finds in his public books.


Seems like a fair statement.

it’s not that Sun reinvented the wheel. He just choose to express his understanding of the arts that he learned and his name is attached to that understanding.


His public arts, which is what we see today, were meant to bring health to people. I don't believe that (at least most of) what is taught in his name today expresses anywhere near the totality of his understanding.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:30 pm

Yes a lot use his name to bolster their profile
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby bailewen on Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:32 am

Bob wrote:Sun Lu Tang combined elements of xing yi and bagua into his taiji - There may be others who have done this but I am only aware of the Sun style of taijiquan that claims this blend...


*cough*
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Strange on Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:42 am

I'ma trying to combine TKD legs, TangShou hands, with capoeira waist
its really really lethal
but you guys know that i'ma real bad ass
so i gotta up the game by adding Muay Thai knees
lethal upon lethal, add up to be supper lethal - no can defend
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:17 am

I've always found the claim that XY, TJ, and BG are "all the same" a bit...grandiose

It's kind of like saying that Chinese, Korean, and Japanese foods are basically the same thing because they all make use of similar ingredients like soy sauce, sesame oil, and fermented soybean paste -- a statement which anyone who's tasted authentic Chinese, Korean, and Japanese foods would likely disagree. ;D

By the same token, when one claims that the 3 arts are the same, what they are doing is basically just making a humongous generalization and ignoring all the details that sets one apart from another.

Personally, I'm much more impressed by someone who can explain and show the subtle differences between the 3 arts as opposed to the similarities. ;)
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bao on Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:41 am

C.J.W. wrote:I've always found the claim that XY, TJ, and BG are "all the same" a bit...grandiose

.....

Personally, I'm much more impressed by someone who can explain and show the subtle differences between the 3 arts as opposed to the similarities. ;)


The thing is that... the differences ain't small. And there can be a lot difference between XY schools and BG schools depending on individual schools and lineages.

Some XY and BG schools start off VERY external, and quite hard. Even some TJ schools starts by teaching rather strenuous jibengong. So a better question would be: "WHAT XY, BG and TJ can match and be practiced together?" I can see classical Hebei XY together with Chen style TJ and Yin style BG. And I can see Wu TJ together with Cheng style BG and Shanxi XY. And I can see Yang style TJ together with XYLH and LHBF.

But some schools, and there are schools in each and every style of the so called internal arts, are just too different in both training methods and body mechanics to really match.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bob on Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:48 am

Hello Omar - it has been a long time.

LOL - I remember your "blended" taiji line quite well and even wished I had learned it - the snippet you posted on Sun Lu Tang's translation would have been better labeled "Bob Quoted (instead of Bob wrote):" to avoid the onslaught of "he said, she said" I just provided some references from Cartmell's translation of Sun Lu Tang's book Taijiquan and Bradford Tyrey's Traditional Sun Lu-Tang Style Tai-Chi Photographic Guidebook so that snippet is just a referencing - kinda went off the rails. LOL

I think I wrote about this years ago in an article that we published ala baji and pigua - Our line trains in both baji & pigua (basic foundational training) separately but we have one form which is called baji/pigua combination form which has both baji and pigua postures (applicable move) linked together but are distinctive in the form - the only place I have actually seen pigua melded into the baji form where the actual posture is a "hybrid" is in the line's version of ba da zou.

Hope all is well in Xian and your practice is going well.
Last edited by Bob on Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Trick on Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:41 pm

. What Sun Lutang says is:

“... the three arts of Xingyi Boxing, Bagua Boxing, and Taiji Boxing merged to become a single essence. This single essence is yet separated into the three distinct systems. The postures of the three systems are different, but their principles are the same.“
Sun Lutang is partly right here in that there’s a shared single essence, but not in that the single essence came about by merging boxing styles...Boxing styles came about by the multitude of possibilities that may spring from the single essence...however sometimes the possibility spring too far so the essence is lost leaving just physical postures to ponder about
Last edited by Trick on Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bao on Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:58 am

Trick wrote:
. What Sun Lutang says is:

“... the three arts of Xingyi Boxing, Bagua Boxing, and Taiji Boxing merged to become a single essence. This single essence is yet separated into the three distinct systems. The postures of the three systems are different, but their principles are the same.“


Sun Lutang is partly right here in that there’s a shared single essence, but not in that the single essence came about by merging boxing styles..


He doesn't speak about they were merged in general, but about his own process developing his own arts.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby GrahamB on Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:37 am

I think you need to understand what was happening in China at the time Sun Lu Tang was writing these things. The Zeitgeist of the times, what the political movements were, what Sun was attached to, what were their motivatons, etc.

What lessons did China learn after the first Japanese-Sino war? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino-Japanese_War

It's often the 'spirit of the times' that is talking through these writings, not the person themselves.

I think you can view the writings of Wang Xiangzhai in the same way. Things like this: https://www.internalartsinternational.c ... ai-part-1/
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Strange on Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:40 am

yes, it's good if ppl are able to tell the "subtle" differences between the arts
but then again, if they can do that, they won't be spouting nonsense like XY hand and Bagua leg
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Trick on Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:47 am

GrahamB wrote:I think you need to understand what was happening in China at the time Sun Lu Tang was writing these things. The Zeitgeist of the times, what the political movements were, what Sun was attached to, what were their motivatons, etc.

What lessons did China learn after the first Japanese-Sino war? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino-Japanese_War

It's often the 'spirit of the times' that is talking through these writings, not the person themselves.

I think you can view the writings of Wang Xiangzhai in the same way. Things like this: https://www.internalartsinternational.c ... ai-part-1/

The essence of boxing transcend styles so therefore know no political boundaries either..SLT and WXZ had grasped the essence and wanted to share the way...Could be just like that....
It seem most likely that it was and still is the reporters/writers and boxing wise the stylists that were and are caught up in the spirit of the times...
Last edited by Trick on Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs

Postby Bob on Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:47 am

What is unclear, at least to me, exactly what is "essence",

What is incorporated from a form or system to be then labeled as "essence"?

From the discussion, as best I understand, blending is not used to create "essence" so it makes me wonder exactly how essence enters into the picture. Applications? Jiben gong? postures? Movement? hybrid? Combinations of all of them?

Who speaks with authority of the defining principles and systems?

I remember a citation at least 20 years ago that there were at least 500 variations on Yang style taijiquan with many families claiming they have the original art and many Yang Cheng Fu practitioners claiming theirs's was the final evolution of the system (and many who also objected vehemently to that LOL)

It seems that new forms evolve somewhat from previous postures - although in theory there might be an infinite number of postures in practicality there seems to be a finite functional number of postures.

In many ways this has turned into a very interesting discussion?

Graham's link seems to Da Cheng Quan lay this out to some extent.
Last edited by Bob on Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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