the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

At what point does practice become ‘art’. When speaking of essence and such, this transition is fascinating.

Bao wrote: I can see classical Hebei XY together with Chen style TJ and Yin style BG. And I can see Wu TJ together with Cheng style BG and Shanxi XY. And I can see Yang style TJ together with XYLH and LHBF.

That is really interesting. Mind fleshing that out a bit? Which Yin Style BG are you referring to? The He Jinbao lineage or the other Yin BG stuff?

I really can see Hebei XY, Chen TJ and Yin BG working together a bit.

Wu TJ definitely is more subtle, and I can Cheng BG is relatively softer than Yin and those may gel well. But I don't think Yang TJ would clash either, considering it's the style most Cheng BG who crosstrain in TJ end up going to. Though personally, I would have thought that Chen TJ would be best even with Cheng BG. Both are circular and spirally, with a focus on grappling.

I can't comment on LHBF and XYLH much. LHBF videos did look like Yang TJ I guess. I would have thought XYLH would have paired better with Yin BG and Chen TJ. It seems very ferocious and physical. It seems a particularly great pair for Chen TJ.

Far7anR wrote:That is really interesting. Mind fleshing that out a bit? Which Yin Style BG are you referring to? The He Jinbao lineage or the other Yin BG stuff?
I really can see Hebei XY, Chen TJ and Yin BG working together a bit.

I was mostly thinking about Xie Peiqi/ He Jinbao Lineage Yin Bagua. But if you look at others as He Jinghan which is Yin BG from another lineage, it’s quite different but it’s not very relaxed. I found most Yin Bagua quite strenuous.

Wu TJ definitely is more subtle, and I can Cheng BG is relatively softer than Yin and those may gel well. But I don't think Yang TJ would clash either, considering it's the style most Cheng BG who crosstrain in TJ end up going to.
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I’ve practiced four different types of Bagua, two different Cheng variations, Sun BG and Yin BG. I didn’t practice Yin style for long because it was too hard compared to my Tai chi and made me stiff. The Sun style BG I practiced felt a bit sloppy and also too similar to Tai Chi so it felt pointless practicing both. Cheng style was my favorite because of the softness together with the dynamic body work. I don’t miss it, but it was very good to combine with my Yang Tai Chi back then, 25 years ago.

. What is unclear, at least to me, exactly what is "essence",

What is incorporated from a form or system to be then labeled as "essence"?

The very essential of boxing is to understand timing, all things else is secondary however never less also of importance, as for example body conditioning.....The Chinese method manage to combined the essence with body conditioning methods into one, which was a great innovation but also a method to be easily misunderstood if one “learn” without proper guidance ...

Bao wrote:I’ve practiced four different types of Bagua, two different Cheng variations, Sun BG and Yin BG. I didn’t practice Yin style for long because it was too hard compared to my Tai chi and made me stiff. The Sun style BG I practiced felt a bit sloppy and also too similar to Tai Chi so it felt pointless practicing both. Cheng style was my favorite because of the softness together with the dynamic body work. I don’t miss it, but it was very good to combine with my Yang Tai Chi back then, 25 years ago.

Sounds like you have been really busy!

I sampled a lot of things, bits and pieces really, but recently finally settled into Yin Style Baguazhang. I almost chose Yang Style Taiji with Adam Mizner's program, but I was told that despite the system's long term benefits I would be better suited to seek martial competence in another system. Also, I wasn't ready to give up my fitness goals for taiji

Far7anR wrote:Sounds like you have been really busy!

Not really. Tai Chi has always been my strong interest and main focus. But I don't believe in that we should live in a bubble. I like to test different things and meet people from other styles and schools. I love Chinese martial arts in general, but I also understand my own limitations.

I sampled a lot of things, bits and pieces really, but recently finally settled into Yin Style Baguazhang. I almost chose Yang Style Taiji with Adam Mizner's program,

Yin style is great. IMO, it’s always good if you can find and focus on something that suits your own body type and temperament.

wingchun wrote:"In the old days, Xing-yi, Taichi and Bagua were one art (same family). it says, Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs"

I can understand what this means in regards to the skillsets of "Xing-yi hands and Taichi waist", but can anyone explain what the Bagua legs skillset entails?

Anyone remember the original Chinese? I forget whether taiji was yao or kua (I think it was kua).

For bagua, legs was "zou" (walking) - the mobility of bagua.

edededed wrote:

wingchun wrote:"In the old days, Xing-yi, Taichi and Bagua were one art (same family). it says, Xing-yi hands, Taichi waist, and Bagua legs"

I can understand what this means in regards to the skillsets of "Xing-yi hands and Taichi waist", but can anyone explain what the Bagua legs skillset entails?

Anyone remember the original Chinese? I forget whether taiji was yao or kua (I think it was kua).

Should be "yao" as in the "waist is the ruler" ("rooted in the feet..." etc. ) . But in terms of mechanics and body use in TJ, maybe it should be more correct to say that the kua is the ruler.

For bagua, legs was "zou" (walking) - the mobility of bagua.

Again, I really don't like generalised quotes like this. XY is just as mobile as BG. And Hao/Wu (Yuxiang) TJQ and Sun TJQ have virtually the same footwork as XY. If it's something that really stands out, then it's the use of the waist in BG. Neither XY or TJ use twisting of the waist to the same extreme as (some) BG schools.

In our tai chi
The shoulders(waist) never turns more than 45 to the hips
The hips never turn more than 45 to the feet
Ba kua can turn more due to the shorter stance
Taj chi also tends to hold the stance and eat up the attack within that stance
Ba kua and Hsing I tend to move to eat the attack

Bob wrote:Hello Omar - it has been a long time.

LOL - I remember your "blended" taiji line quite well and even wished I had learned it

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Hope all is well in Xian and your practice is going well.

Life goes on. Life is weird. Been with Master Li for like 20 years now. It's not the same relationship it once was, of course. Got a family now, a "real job". Been a very strange last couple of years. Strange days indeed.

Yes indeed - strange - just retired - missing China and my in-laws, family & food

Just starting to pour over 28 years of notes ( Liu Yunqiao lineage) and not sure where it will go LOL.

Retired from active public classes & practice but continue daily private practice - stay well!

In the line of Bagua I practice, we use the waist to lead the kua as opposed to the kua leading the waist like in most styles of Xingyi and Taiji.

There are people who do Bagua using the kua to lead the waist but, in my opinion, they are usually the ones who come from lineages that have mixed in Xingyi and Taiji's shenfa.

C.J.W. wrote:In the line of Bagua I practice, we use the waist to lead the kua as opposed to the kua leading the waist like in most styles of Xingyi and Taiji.

Don’t know about the waist leading the kua. But in Cheng and Yin bagua I’ve studied the waist is certainly more active than the kua when performing most of the movements.

There are people who do Bagua using the kua to lead the waist but, in my opinion, they are usually the ones who come from lineages that have mixed in Xingyi and Taiji's shenfa.

Sun stylists often doesn’t twist the waist very much and rather twist the hips when they walk. A little bit strange actually as Sun Lutang makes it clear in his book that the twisting should be quite prominent from the feet throughout the whole body right out through the fingertips. I think that many mistake the notion of that the movements should be “natural” as “comfortable” in the Sun arts, so they tend to not go to the extremes. Many don’t sink very much either and sometimes they are pretty lazy, or sloppy in their movements. Bagua should not really be relaxed. You should try to relax into you Bagua, but that is something else than doing things relaxed.

Old saying
From the unnatural to the natural

If training felt natural from the start what would be the point

Having played around with these "styles" for a while I've noticed that the areas of the body that initiate the movements or at least where the mind emphasizes have a part in the qualities or flavors of these arts.

For instance (with the activation of certain muscles in the torso, say the ribcage or Transverse Abdominal for instance (as is trained with the hissing of some Hsing Yi's) the arms and hands become qualitatively rock solid and can appear to move sort of independently of the rest of the body. Taiji's soft body and (almost pathological obsession with ) sinking the "chi" leads to the initiation of the movement resulting in a softer bouncy quality in the arms. Bagua on the other hand with its emphasis on the legs 'Wrapping" and "driving" the jin gives a very wirery feel to the arms.

So the saying goes Hsing Yi like a ball of iron, Tai Ji like a ball of rubber and Bagua Like a ball of Wire.

This might give us a clue as to the emphasis on hands,waist and legs maxim.

Konn