Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

[johnwang]

Try it again!

[dragontigerpalm]

I would agree about the mindset - its not something that most boxers think about - they are training to fight other boxers, not wrestlers.
On another note, one of my students was teaching at the FBI. He was harassed by another instructor, a BJJ guy. My student got tired of it and basically said "ok, lets see what you've got". The BJJ guy tried numerous attacks, trying to bring my student down. It ended with my student cold cocking the guy (who seemed to think that it was unfair....)

That would certainly answer the question of which is easier to strike a judo guy or a boxer.

[CaliG]

In a strange way I think it can be easier to takedown a judo guy than a boxer.

In that if the boxer is fully charged and ready to go his training is going to give him the ability to stick and move making difficult to close in to hit him much less clinch on him.

Where as with a bjj/judoka/wrestler type they are going to want to clinch because that's where they do their thing and where they can start their game plan.

Of course this is just talk and theory in the end it just depends who is fighting who.

[Bodywork]

One of primary reasons for training BJJ or ground defense in a military or LEO setting is that is can be a very live and dynamic environment to train in for folks who don’t have previous fight training, all while teaching them to feel comfortable on the ground. Something which most people are afraid of and where they frequently end up to lack of fight training. It doesn't mean they are training to 'go there by choice." Having been training on the ground pretty much my whole adult life I remain....not a fan. I still have a permanent scar from my misspent youth, from getting booted in the back of the head by a total stranger in a bar brawl while I was on the ground winning. The guy just hauled off and kicked me in the head. My friend beat the shit out of him for it. Being on the ground, or even thinking of going there in a public setting is like walking around with a lightening rod in a thunderstorm. You just don’t do it. If you do you deserve what you get since you’re a moron asking for trouble.
The primary focus in training should be on internal training for power and sensitivity, then fight training fortakedown resistance, positioning, movement, while striking, kicking, to work throws, head stomps and kicks or last…ground work. Once on the ground the primary focus should be strikes and locks and getting back up. You should always be careful when watching the UFC or any venue where it’s fighter to fighter. Many tools that are cast aside or streamlined because you are facing an educated opponent will work just fine with 90% of the populace who will be overwhelmed in an instant. I've been accused of having two speeds. "Off, and kill." The truth of it is that when on I go into a flow of steady motion while fighting or sparring its just natural. Against most martial artists the continual invasive motion just “seems” overwhelming.
Again, it is another benefit of good ground training to be constantly sensitive to positioning and repositioning, but that can be accomplished in both standing and ground work as well.
The old sayings that use to apply still apply but it’s getting more difficult too apply them.
Let’s use the saying “Never play his game make him play yours”
In the old days if your were playing with a judo guy, your would punch the kick the shit out of him. And if you were conversant in Judo it was rather easy to not get thrown.
If your fighting a boxer you set him up and take him down with good grappling.
Now-a-days more people cross train. So now you have to be on top to play him and test his weaknesses of understanding and exploit them. All-in-all I’ll take grappling, with head butts and elbows and knees, but a good haymaker and its lights out. And it can happen to anyone. Anyone can get hit.
One true benefit is internal power in grappling and striking. While most of the uneducated MAers will just tell you how strong you are and how powerful your punches even in close, and they cannot explain how you’re so slippery and avoid and get out of throws while not getting winded. I don’t bother explaining how a 50 yr old can roll through a group of twenty something’s with ease. John here is your cue to say internal guys are stupid and lame and can’t fight and it’s all about muscle. You’re a perfect example of another old saying. “Underestimating your opponent.”
I like these old sayings
“Never assume”
“Never take something for granted”
“Expect the worst”

[xuesheng]

Interesting discussion. The only other thing I'll add is that specific skills are not simply a matter of style. The individual is more important than the style in a lot of ways. I know good boxers/strikers who are superb at staying on their feet and others that suck at it. I know wrestlers and groundfighters easy to shoot on and sweep and others that are very tough. Finally, there are some judo guys that are easy to throw and some that are tough. And none of the necessarily depends on overall ability. We each have things that we're good at and bad at. Certain things come very naturally to certain individuals and I wouldn't chalk it all up to style or even training... One of the best fighters I've ever known had almost no formal training - he just fought a lot in the street as a kid.

[SitYodTong]

JW--taking someone down who has superior stand-up striking and grappling is very difficult. Shamrock couldn't set up his takedowns well enough, mostly because Cung Le was so dominant with the striking aspect of his game.

Cung also has a long grappling background and has been training MMA/BJJ for years. Add that in with his San Shou/Muay Thai skills and you have a really tough opponent. Of course no one who does MMA these days trains in just one style, regardless of what is hyped by the ring announcers...everyone is doing more or less the same stuff.

[johnwang]

If in the next 20 Gung Li fight that nobody can take him down then what conclusion can we draw from it? Does that mean a guy with strong rooting can do without ground fight experience?

[Dillon]

I don't think we can make that conclusion, because Cung Le has extensive takedown and ground fighting experience. It's just not his primary stuff.

[WuGuy]

A good hand strike is fast, much faster than a takedown. And most takedowns require that you get your chin in range, and no matter how well practiced your takedown, all it takes is a relatively small hook to the chin to shake your brain enough to send you to dreamland. Boxers train to hit whatever part of their opponent gets in range, but how many grapplers practice their takedowns against someone who's skillfully trying to knock them out the instant their chin is in range?
--
Russell

[DeusTrismegistus]

A good hand strike is fast, much faster than a takedown. And most takedowns require that you get your chin in range, and no matter how well practiced your takedown, all it takes is a relatively small hook to the chin to shake your brain enough to send you to dreamland. Boxers train to hit whatever part of their opponent gets in range, but how many grapplers practice their takedowns against someone who's skillfully trying to knock them out the instant their chin is in range?
--
Russell

Boxers clinch all the time, thats throwing range. Its easy to assume that people just jump in head first from arm reach when they do a takedown. Good throwers and grapplers simply know better. Its hard to hit someone that knows how to enter for a throw off strikes because they will wait until they are in a position where you cannot easily hit them and/or they will be controlling a limb as they enter.

[Schu]

If in the next 20 Gung Li fight that nobody can take him down then what conclusion can we draw from it? Does that mean a guy with strong rooting can do without ground fight experience?

I say yes anyways.

I drew this conclusion after running a little experiment for years when I was in the military and constantly meeting, BJJ, Judo, Sambo and even your field, SC artists.

I would tell them no punching unless they want me to punch back but I would stand there and resist their takedown with no offensive moves on my part. They could do whatever they liked and if they could make me even take a knee in 90 seconds they won. Often they strugggled for 5 minutes exposing the back of their head and spine trying to grapple me to the ground. Then I would tell them times up.

I am fully aware that if they punched and connected (ie a softening technique) then they would have had a better chance but thats my game and I'll play that with a grappler anyday. Also another little thing that I also teach. Disengage the ego (for non grapplers) when you go to the ground and try to get away and stand back up. Is not your element and you are a fish out of water. It's very difficult to grapple with someone who is running away from you.

Another time when showing a Tiger technique I was ridiculed (by a SC artist) for a low gung bu stance that placed my leg out front with heavy weight on it. The guy scoffed and said I was asking to be reaped/sweeped. I dropped my hands and said nice point. It is always good to know each techniques weakness. I asked if he was good at reaps and being a SC artist (and instructor, I was actually at his class and was just BS'ing with a fellow student after class) he felt that in fact he was well versed in reaps. A few seconds later after he tried to kick, sweep, reap and hook my leg to no success (we weighed the same amount by the way) he said that he would have to really do it with spirit to make it work. I did not quite get his meaning (You SC guys can be ruthless which was the other lesson I learned that day!) He came at me again and while I sat there with my hands down at my side he tried to sucker punch me. Because I was in tiger mode he got blocked with tiger claw which ripped into his arm's skin taking the momentum out of his follow up reap to my leg. He would no doubt have knocked me out if I had not been relaxed and receptive to him coming at me.

I am also sure someone like Cung Le could kick my leg out from under me (BTW his trainer is a Hung Gar student of my Grandmaster and no I'm not saying Cung Le does Hung Gar but the importance of stance is no doubt emphasized in his training. See outtakes on the cult video "Kwoon")

That does not answer the thread question but in my experience grapplers always have an excellent center of balance and my sweeps usually just bruise their leg and get them angry, against boxers and tournament fighter the sweep works wonderfully. Just like the bad guy said to Daniel-San in Karate Kid III many (TMA's) tournament fighters are sucker for the low sweep. (Daniel then kicks the dummies shin board until he bleeds) Ok you can ban me for that reference now....

[iwalkthecircle]

If in the next 20 Gung Li fight that nobody can take him down then what conclusion can we draw from it? Does that mean a guy with strong rooting can do without ground fight experience?

Sanshou/SunDa/kungFu can kick MMA's butt.